[max]

so,

one of the two bands i'm in has been recently getting some credit and we've been contacted by some record label. i won't explain all details but i would like to share this experience. the labels want us guys to provide money for the press of our first full lenght. then they will have to be in charge for ARTISTIC PRODUCTION (which means, if for example they do not like a verse, a part of a certain tune, they can actually force us to change it) and they also said WE will have to pay for such a job. lastly, they want us to travel all the way to their studios to record the songs - and obviously want us to pay for the hours in there as well.

i thought label support would mean getting these things covered - financially, over all and mostly.

it turns out it's a major screw up.

what are your thoughts? we have ours already... and it's very clear. but i want to know what you people think about it.

[Sheriff Rhys Chatham]

I say fuck them!

[terminal pharmacy]

that sounds like a terrible terrible contract, but it is great you guys are getting some recognition. when signing contracts you really should spend the money and get an entertainment lawyer to look things over and explain things you don't understand. i would be trying to get out of that contract. however everyone has to pay their recording fees etc whether it is before or after the fact, but why did you sign contracts giving away artistic control?

[max]

no no, we did not sign anything at all as of yet. a good friend of ours who works as a lawyer is backing us up, and we're very aware of the dangers of signing such things. mind you guys, that this was not a single record label getting to us to propose this whole deal... this actually seems to be the way things happen in the biz nowadays.

we too feel very happy for the recognition, and the label reps have been very enthusiastic about our stuff... but man, you know what? these days a few things started hitting me in the face all together:

1 - the problem with music (s. albini) http://negativland.com/albini.html
2 - interview with david lynch http://youtube.com/watch?v=X64YQIKtnJs
3 - interview with trent rezonr (and i am not a fan of the guy at all)
4 - several john carpenter and george a. romero interviews on the studio system and the digital era of doing things...

all i have to say is - we get to sign a deal, and record the thing having to pay ALL OF THAT STUFF... and what do we get? an overpriced cd in stores that no one will give a fuck any way? i say, we get the music out there as we are doing already, and if someone cares enough to listen they'll eventually ask us a cd or something...

it certainly is frustrating seeing our cd getting reviewed on zines after all teh fancy signed bands that are up and down, but what the fuck: the way we want things done - that is our priority.

[terminal pharmacy]

everyone has to pay for their recordings, noone gets to do this for free, the thing is what do you know about their studio, can you bring you own engineer and producer and donot sign away any artisic control, you are chatting on a board of probably the most pioneering rock band for the last century try and ask questions of them if you can. either way you pay for the recordings whether you are on a major, and indie or diy. if you diy then you can shop around for distro which is far more economical.

[Pax Americana]

Sounds like a raw deal to me. Not that I know anything about record contracts.

[terminal pharmacy]

there is a clause, i cant remember what it is called but it is to do with a&r people, if the a&r person leaves their job at the label you signed at, you can leave the contract too, however you do need to get this written into the contract.

[max]

Originally Posted by terminal pharmacy

everyone has to pay for their recordings, noone gets to do this for free, the thing is what do you know about their studio, can you bring you own engineer and producer and donot sign away any artisic control, you are chatting on a board of probably the most pioneering rock band for the last century try and ask questions of them if you can. either way you pay for the recordings whether you are on a major, and indie or diy. if you diy then you can shop around for distro which is far more economical.

I was totally naive about this - I thought the label was supposed to give you economical support... we'll end up doing it ourselves - for sure. I'd love to shop around for distro but so far, it's kinda hard to tell what will happen.

I will be in Chicago on july 13th at the pitchfork fest. I'd love to meet Steve and ask him personally about this... but this seems unlikely. Who knows?

Thanx for the input man.

[Bicorn Halfelven]

I used to drum for a band that got signed to a good-sized indie that I think most of you have heard of.

Paper contract, we own the masters... real cool. Our contact, one of the owners, was the only one we went through and was very direct... it was all a pleasant experience, for the most part.

After signing to an expandable one record contract, dude forked over an advance for the recording which afforded us some recording gear.

50/50 after the label makes back expenses, pretty standard for indies, from what I've heard.

We were pretty lucky in that we toured with a band which contained an ex-member of a band that used to be on the label... the label heads saw us play together, and ended up singing us. We got wined and dined, signed and treated fairly and they were cool people to boot.

I've heard a LOT of horror stories, so I consider myself lucky.

[Savage Clone]

That is horrible.
I have managed to get the support of kind labels who give me complete freedom. We pay our own recording expenses (and we have our own studio, so this is pretty moot by this point), but the content is all under our control, as is the art. I have worked out different royalty agreements for different releases, but most of the time a smaller indie will tend to go for just "paying" us in a certain percentage of copies out of the pressing for us to do with what we will, which is fine. I have also waited for royalties to come in when a pressing sells out, which was nice as well, but took patience. To me, a "real" record label takes the financial risk of producing the product for its bands. If you have to put all that money into it, you might as well try going it on your own to start with anyway.
I would never go for a "deal" where I had to pay for production costs without artistic control; I don't know why anyone would. I would advise you to shop your stuff around and wait for something better; if nothing better comes along, just put it out yourself. There are a lot of distros and mailorder outlets available to go direct with.

I have gotten the 50/50 after label expenses deal that Bicorn mentioned as well. I found that completely reasonable.

[atari 2600]

That's the way it works these days in far too many cases. One needs investors, a manager/lawyer and an agent to even become a band anyone will hear in the post-Cobain music biz. In short, one must be some spoiled little rich kid. The post-Basquiat art world has similar bullshit going down. If you're just an "emerging artist," any gallery with an actual reputation, in addition to commission, charges you to exhibit your paintings.

Of course, there's always the outside chance that your music or art has relevance and that you have some talent. In this case, you can sometimes get lucky due to who you know and buck the system, but you better not be too much of an individual, or too intelligent. You must assume the role of vacant syncophant for insiders that may help to like you as a person and not feel threatened by you. It's what I've found.

P.S. people SUCK

[Savage Clone]

Max's scenario just strikes me as insanity.
In today's climate, the only advantages to being on a label lie in production, distribution and press coverage/promotion all being taken care of for you. Now, of course any one of these things is an advantage in and of itself, but the full package is what makes things alluring. Having to take all that financial risk really should be the burden of the people running the label. Press and promotion are valuable services, but production and distribution are where the expenses and risks really lie, and if you have to take on that risk you might as well start your own label so you can also reap the lion's share of the rewards should things go well for you. Obviously people are paying attention to you if you are being courted by anyone.

[CHOUT]

Fuck 'em Max...you don't need 'em...something better may come along anyway.

[atari 2600]

Originally Posted by Savage Clone

Max's scenario just strikes me as insanity.
In today's climate, the only advantages to being on a label lie in production, distribution and press coverage/promotion all being taken care of for you. Now, of course any one of these things is an advantage in and of itself, but the full package is what makes things alluring. Having to take all that financial risk really should be the burden of the people running the label. Press and promotion are valuable services, but production and distribution are where the expenses and risks really lie, and if you have to take on that risk you might as well start your own label so you can also reap the lion's share of the rewards should things go well for you. Obviously people are paying attention to you if you are being courted by anyone.

Yeah, seriously, I would write and send your kit to other music companies about the injustice just like you've written to us here. What have you got to lose? You've got some cred, you've got material, you've proven you're a hard-worker that wants to make music a career in that respect, so roll the dice. Maybe you'll contact a company that has some beef with the company trying to fuck you without lube, and they'll give you a shot out of spite.

[max]

Atari - that's very much the case. "In short, one must be some spoiled little rich kid." Either that, or you get the occasional mecenate thingie. Like CATHERINE BACHMANN AND NICOLAS CERESOLE... or the guy which gave David Lynch the money to build up a very personal "moving picture" installation in his house.

Bicorn - that's quite the deal, I'm glad for you man.

Savage Clone, we'll wait till I'll come back from the US of A (late july) and then we'll decide. We mostly want to play out there somehow. I guess we'll buy a van and try to book some shows aroound Europe.

[max]

Originally Posted by CHOUT

Fuck 'em Max...you don't need 'em...something better may come along anyway.

that's it man, that is it... we'll get it done our way and who fuckin' cares about not getting to the stores? it's not like someone's gonna be richer or anything like that. we like what we do and we simply enjoy that - we don't want this whole thing to become something to fight on...

thanx a lot everyone for sharing different points of view. as for the whole injustice feel - at this very point i think we just want our music to be heard, but damn, surely i am pissed off. if it would just depend on me, i'd do anything to try and fuck shit up. i know the rest of the band feels like that but i'm also quite sure that they'd want to keep cool, and simply go on. i'm one of the angriest in the flock.

here in fuckin Italy, no matter what, music is just something to fuck kids over.

i dunno, in any way we'll get our thing done.

[max]

what really really pisses me off is to see some bands getting better deals and better treatment becuz of what they play. the niche treatment, ie - hardcore music is getting huge here. seems like it's VERY easy to get a deal and get out with that if you play hc stuff, right now.

[atari 2600]

Right, & the "creative input" bit is when they make you sound as much like the niche as possible.

Oh, it's Italy. Well, it's bad here in the U.S. too. It's usually the subsiduaries of large companies that like to fucking charge you for your dream. They never promote you properly, and they always steal your money. Shit, they probably write you off somehow on their taxes later and exaggerate what they lost on you---probably the crux of the biscuit of the whole scam. PolyGram here in the U.S. (now part of Universal Music Group), and Polydor (the Universal subsid in the UK) are especially notorious dream-thieves. Sonic Youth really should have nothing to do with them, but I guess Interscope/Geffen was absorbed or some shit.

In Italy, all you get is the subsiduaries really. Not entirely, but those are always the ones supposedly "giving you opportunities."

[max]

yeah. the bad thing is - these guys really want to pass on like INDIE SAVIOURS. these ain't even HUGE companies... these are the kinda guys you would expect to know what being in a garage rehearsing tunes is like. the kinda guys you would expect to lend you a hand, not trying to fuck you over.

utopia... anyone?

[atari 2600]

Damn, here in the U.S. you just make a college town a home base and put out some cds on your own or a buddy's label.

I feel like an idiot for not reading your location next to your avatar earlier. Beer makes you stupid, but sometimes I need a little since I gave up the harder stuff.