[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Derek

Yes, you're right, the US electoral system is completely crooked. Good thing there's a candidate whose whole campaign is about challenging power structures. Also you speak to me in the same way when you talk about the UK so come off it mate lol.

i don't think i've ever tried to tell UK residents what to do or who to vote for

i mostly ask them questions, and i may have my favorites, but i don't go there saying "vote for farage" or whatever.

i did wish you well in your attempt at independence though. which failed because a lot of people prefer the known over the unknown even if it's not great for them.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Derek

 

MSNBC's top headline after the Nevada caucus: "Bernie falls to first place as Klobuchar heads to a respectable winner's 3rd place"

yeah he's been ahead in the nevada polls all weekend. the suprising one for me is biden 2nd, coming back from the dead.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Derek

Yes, you're right, the US electoral system is completely crooked. Good thing there's a candidate whose whole campaign is about challenging power structures. Also you speak to me in the same way when you talk about the UK so come off it mate lol.

do you know what the role of the senate is, and why it exists, and what it would take to... do away with it?

[Derek]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

i did wish you well in your attempt at independence though. which failed because a lot of people prefer the known over the unknown even if it's not great for them.

Yep, and how do you change that? By mobilising a broad coalition of people who aren't typically involved in the political system or need help in moving out of their "nothing will get better" mindset. As a Scottish person, cynicism is our worst enemy. A lot of the US has this same problem, but this ties in with fighting poverty and "diseases of despair" as I've talked about before.

Also Trump winning again will give the Tory government much more time to sell off parts of the NHS to Trump. Bernie will reject it. The whole world has a stake in this dumbass continuing to be president and I believe Bernie is the only way to defeat him, so I will strongly advocate for anyone to vote for him.

[tw2113]

I've long been in conflict with "healthcare is a human right" line.


There's healthcare the payment structure, and there's health care the act.


I can't and shouldn't be able to forcefully stop you from caring for yourself. If you break your leg, I can't stop you from seeking out care to heal it. If you get a head cold, I can't stop you from buying over the counter cold meds. It's your right to care for your health.


That's not the same as the payment structure, which I don't think is a human right. That said though, I'd much prefer my taxes to go to things like healthcare, than all the international interventions and wars we've been in pretty much non stop since I can remember.

[demonrail666]

 

[Derek]

You're British and agreeing with a pro-private insurance American. The Queen just shed a tear.

[Derek]

The fact that there's so much pushback on here about the very simple and agreeable idea of a free at point of access health system shows how out of touch this board is now. It's an insanely popular idea that exists in most developed countries and there's nary a peep about reverting any current systems. I just don't get it. It's like talking to a million brick walls. I repeat myself over and over cause I get the exact same tired responses. You've all become your parents. The idea of M4A will become the standard opinion in the US soon enough (as if it isn't already) and you will be even more confused about how the world is now, still playing by an old rulebook that was torn up long ago.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Derek

Yep, and how do you change that? By mobilising a broad coalition of people who aren't typically involved in the political system or need help in moving out of their "nothing will get better" mindset. As a Scottish person, cynicism is our worst enemy. A lot of the US has this same problem, but this ties in with fighting poverty and "diseases of despair" as I've talked about before.

Also Trump winning again will give the Tory government much more time to sell off parts of the NHS to Trump. Bernie will reject it. The whole world has a stake in this dumbass continuing to be president and I believe Bernie is the only way to defeat him, so I will strongly advocate for anyone to vote for him.

i don’t think it’s likely that bernie will mobilize a broad coalition to flip the senate. if anything, he’ll get his loyalist plus some vote blue no matter who folks like me, but lose the middle, the independents, and republicans who are unhappy with loco trump.

im not saying it’s not possible. im saying—maybe it’s possible he could mobilize the sleepers. maybe, don’t know how many there are. i’ve never seen them.

but it’s also possible that he could lose in a major debacle. the potential downside is significant.

a moderate candidate could also win, get the independents, get the discontent republicans, and get a true broad base.

a moderate could also lose, but the chances of a major debacle with them are lower. even someone as unispiring as hillary lost by just a few key districts.

the real battle is the battle for the senate. the contests for the senate are not among “the poor” but among suburban voters.

suburban districts poll to the middle.

it’s taken 10 years for voters to get to like obamacare, and building on it seems much more doable than trying to overthrow the whole system. even if the overthrow *is not actually possible*, it’s bound to scare moderates and independents into holding their noses and voting for trump OR voting cross-ticket and elect the man but deny the senate.

[Derek]

The poisoning of SYG is not only moronic Trumpism but classic scolding liberalism. These poisons combined have made this board not one of our admiration of a radical art rock band, and the many musicians who lived and breathed much more radical life philosophies than an old Vermont senator, but of asskissing the rich and the powerful. A mentality of you can't do this, you can't do that. A distinct and bitter rejection of the ideas of the Youth on the Sonic Youth board. The political discourse on here has the same quality as my boomer relatives on facebook. Completely bereft of ideas, a lack of passion and fire for justice and a rebalancing of power. Just hollow political insider talk and excuses. You guys enjoy being confused about what's going to happen in the political world, continue to be naive about how much this vast inequality will devour us.

 

[!@#$%!]

i like you logical fallacy of appeal to sonicyouthism

best wishes radicalizing your street block and growing from there

[Derek]

he says from his armchair as the world explodes and the rich fly off to their Elon Musk funded moon colonies

[Derek]

guest is the only person who has made any sort of coherent considered point in the last few pages. symbol man then goes on to accuse a queer person of baiting homophobia and completely removing their agency of thought cause HE'S the rational one and everyone else just has an ideological agenda! This makes me understand more how he cannot understand my points at all also, so that is actually reassuring. He is so constrained to ideology while also trying to reject it. It all ends up landing in the "rational middle", never really standing for anything. Never even attempting to understand things from other people's worldview, and ultimately never truly understanding why someone like Trump can win the presidency. Much easier to write me off as a radical even when I'm making sense and represent the viewpoint of a large amount of people. The people that will fulfill your David and Goliath fantasy of taking down the bad guy. I dunno.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Derek

guest is the only person who has made any sort of coherent considered point in the last few pages. symbol man then goes on to accuse a queer person of baiting homophobia and completely removing their agency of thought cause HE'S the rational one and everyone else just has an ideological agenda! This makes me understand more how he cannot understand my points at all also, so that is actually reassuring. He is so constrained to ideology while also trying to reject it. It all ends up landing in the "rational middle", never really standing for anything. Never even attempting to understand things from other people's worldview, and ultimately never truly understanding why someone like Trump can win the presidency. Much easier to write me off as a radical even when I'm making sense and represent the viewpoint of a large amount of people. The people that will fulfill your David and Goliath fantasy of taking down the bad guy. I dunno.

i dunno either, but when your messiah saves us i’ll convert

and like i said, if he wins the primary he’s got my full support

meanwhile, this sort of escapist tantrum is how berniebros damage bernie himself

[Derek]

Oh yes of course it does

[Severian]

Originally Posted by Derek

I hope you know that this attitude is how someone like Bloomberg gets the nomination. He may be a racist sexist billionaire who hates the poor but he's our racist sexist billionaire who hates the poor. If you want a progressive then fight for a progressive! The primary is the time to separate the real from the fake.

This attitude? Not wanting Sanders and Warren to shit on each other?

I’m still voting, I just don’t like the self-destruction.

Didn’t realize not wanting the Dems to be divided was the cause of all the evil in the world lmao

Fuck Bloomberg

[tw2113]

I'm cynical that medicare for all, and all these programs wouldn't affect the current costs that we're charged. So we'd be paying in millions upon millions of dollars that won't end up covering as many as it all legitimately should.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by tw2113

I'm cynical that medicare for all, and all these programs wouldn't affect the current costs that we're charged. So we'd be paying in millions upon millions of dollars that won't end up covering as many as it all legitimately should.

medicare is actually very cost effective. expanding it would bring down costs.

it’s not complete however, and many seniors add supplemental insurance.

also, there are many doctors who won’t work with medicare because it pays too little. so something would have to be worked out.

france has one of the best overall healthcare systems in the world, and it’s run by the government and it costs less than it does here. there’s also supplemental insurance for those who want it.

culturally and legally however it would be very hard for us to arrive at the same system. france is very centralized and has a history of being directed from the top. we’re a republic composed of many different states and subcultures and it’s much harder for everyone to fall in line. we tend to believe more in local government. more than france anyway.

the best model for us is probably switzerland, which looks a lot like... obamacare done right (insurance is truly mandatory). as i understand it’s not national but administered by the cantons, much like our states do here. there are subsidies for those who can’t afford. it’s expensive but also provides great quality care—apparently the best doctors in europe go work there. their insurance industry however is tightly regulated, unlike here. obamacare was supposed to cure that but there are still many junk health plans that are utter shit, and the trumpkins want to see more.

see: https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...ance/index.htm

these are practically fucking scams and republicans love them because it makes their pals money.

see: https://www.policygenius.com/blog/ho...nsurance-plan/

now it would be better and safer if low paid workers could join the expanded medicare instead of falling prey to these bastards.

im not saying the swiss is the best model overall, but culturally and legally we’re closest to it, and it’s therefore more achievable/ closer at hand. meaning we wouldn’t need a revolution to get it—just the house, the senate, the presidency, and the supreme court (yeah, “just” those lolol). and then the states would be the laboratories where it would be put into practice.

[tw2113]

I'm forever wondering how it's possible that these prices are/were reached in the first place and if they were actually closer to legit costs and not inflated so much, how the current setup could actually be effective.


I won't deny I could be quite naive on the topic overall though.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by tw2113

I'm forever wondering how it's possible that these prices are/were reached in the first place and if they were actually closer to legit costs and not inflated so much, how the current setup could actually be effective.


I won't deny I could be quite naive on the topic overall though.

there are a bunch of factors piled up one on top of the other but just off the top of my head...

-the uninsured raise costs for everyone else when they can’t pay
-insufficient primary/preventive care raises costs of specialists + procedures down the line
-overuse of emergency rooms over lower cost options, per above
-lack of insurance standards raises the administrative cost for medical practices
-high cost of medical education/debt incentivizes high prices
-cultural tradition of seeing medicine as a moneymaking business not a vocation
-high cost of malpractice insurance in a lawsuit-happy environment gets passed to the patient
-unnecessary procedures to avoid malpractice lawsuits
-unregulated/abusive pharmaceutical prices. often cited as “cost of research” by companies, often patently not (e.g., see cost of insulin)
-chronic diseases like diabetes and heart problems eat a large chunk of resources (again tied to deficiencies in preventive care)
-upfront costs are hidden, even for providers (e.g. xrays/tests in a lab cost less than xrays/tests in a hospital, but they don’t tell you that, and when you ask how much your session will cost nobody has an answer, the surprise! here’s your bill...)
-etc