[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by knox

Most of the time I am the victim if I don't tell you to go fuck yourself.

Virgin Mary - to blame for all this.

I'm a bit surprised you haven't mentioned Lilith, yet.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by knox

Most of the time I am the victim if I don't tell you to go fuck yourself.

pfft

you're not a victim-- you're a professional victim. which makes you the perpetrator. but i won't dance this stupid dance.

i won't get into into a long argument with a high-class troll-- what atsonic correctly called you-- it's utterly pointless. you'll find more excuses to keep crying wolf.

for the record, your doom and gloom posts often annoy me, but i don't throw a hissy fit or ask you to change what you write. it's the fucking internet-- serious business?

why don't you put me on ignore if my posts so disturb you? not that you bother to read them. or keep playing the angry nun if you wish. or complain about how victimized you are. either way i don't give a shit.

seeya.

[knox]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

pfft

you're not a victim-- you're a professional victim. which makes you the perpetrator. but i won't dance this stupid dance.

i won't get into into a long argument with a high-class troll-- what atsonic correctly called you-- it's utterly pointless. you'll find more excuses to keep crying wolf.

for the record, your doom and gloom posts often annoy me, but i don't throw a hissy fit or ask you to change what you write. it's the fucking internet-- serious business?

why don't you put me on ignore if my posts so disturb you? not that you bother to read them. or keep playing the angry nun if you wish. or complain about how victimized you are. either way i don't give a shit.

seeya.

This is extremely unfair. I'm not crying wolf or making drama - so if a woman decides she's not happy about something that is drama? I really did not expect that from you.

I just honestly thought you were one of those guys who said were willing to comply to certain requests in order to make the women on this board a little bit more comfortable and stop scaring them away.

But now I get it, they're only supposed to be around if they won't interact in anyway that'll bother you, right?

As you see, I didn't start making personal attacks like you're doing to me, I just asked, and if you could please answer me: Did you or did you not agree to keep photos of naked women in certain specific threads? Because I seem to remember you doing that - that is all.

So i voice myself against racism (which was the cause of my discussion with atsonicpark) and sexism and suddenly I'm a high class troll?

I'm far from it - sadly for you? - I'm very real and those are my REAL beliefs that I can't shut up when I see disrespect.

But like I said, this only really affects my image of you - because unlike what you said about me, you do not annoy me, I've always seen you as an intelligent man and enjoyed reading your posts.

And for the record - I'm not asking you to change what you write you seem to misunderstand me a lot - I just pointed out the contradiction.

I could go on and on about this argument (it's the internet it's not serious) but we all know it is. We're all real people here, and real things happen on it, I don't see it as a lawless place and apply different morals to it.

It's only the internet - doesn't apply.

And I'm not any different in real life: if I hear any remote homophobic, sexist, racist, xenophobic comment on the fucking bus or whatever, someone is sure to get a bashing. Party pooping all this morality on the internet?

Perhaps. But like I said, this isn't about me, I'd like to see more women posting here that's all and I'm telling you why they don't - no supernatural mystery.

Its not your posts that disturb me, its the fact that you'll say one thing and do something else. And I'm clearly not being victimized, since I'm still posting here but I sadly gotta expect this to turn into a 99% male board - like i've seen it happen to many others.

There's an interesting sense of irony that you should sound so superior and patronising and even insulting towards me on a thread about Mary, but I guess I'm the only one to see the joke. You can try to ridicule me for talking about my beliefs, but it's only gonna make my point stronger - it seems you're really unwilling to show any respect towards women unless they're saying what you wanna hear.

[knox]

Most of the boards I've ever been a member of started of with a mix of female and male members (always more male members), but still. In most of them, this debate happened, and this behavior got worse and women were slowly stepping away until few resisted, and then it becomes like 98% men 2% women (1% posting regularly or something like that).

It's an odd pattern for me to observe over and over because I am perhaps naive and like to believe that's not what people want.

But it's interesting to think about: why is the internet more sexist than said real life? Anyone with an idea?

I know it tolerates more racism, child pornography and all sorts of horrible things, but is something said/done virtually less real in terms of consequences?

[Glice]

Originally Posted by knox

But it's interesting to think about: why is the internet more sexist than said real life? Anyone with an idea?

I don't think it's 'the internet' in general, I think it's the sort of places you're posting in. There are plenty of areas of the internet where sausage-fests don't proliferate; music messageboards generally aren't that.

Having said that, I think a lot of heterosexual men seem to find the internet 'liberating' (I'm almost saying that ironically) in terms of being able to be 'complimentary' towards women - I'm lucky enough to be the sort of person who doesn't have a problem saying that a person is wearing lovely shoes, but I know a few people who are happy to say a female poster is 'hot' (or whatever) but would never do the same 'IRL'.

I really hate the 'cultural' defence, but I do think that sometimes the internet just makes you much more aware of how different cultural areas view sex and related issues. I live in a relatively culturally homogenous area, where attitude to sex are often fairly similar; I was reading an Islamic forum yesterday where there were these guys (relatively respectfully, I should say) discussing the problems of relationships where they anticipate the woman to be slightly more servile; it's an odd thing to me, but they were mostly sort of going 'ah, but I love her, so if she wants to have a good time with her friends, inshallah'.

But yeah. Get off the music forums.

[knox]

Yeah, I suppose I kind of forgot how sexist music is.

But, no, the internet IS a bit more sexist. Like you said, I think men are doing here what is frowned upon in "real life" now.

How can I get off the music forums? Where do you want me to go yahoo answers? Fashion blogs? Crochet tips?

[Glice]

http://www.stereotypesabouthandbags.com

I should note it's only a certain sort of music. I've seen a few classical forums which, while dull, have minimal sexist content and a much more even distribution of sexes. Was Kittyradio not a bit more lady-friendly? I suppose the weird thing with SYG is that, for all of their association with various 'forward thinking' politics and whatnot, their fans seem primarily to be the male, white, m/c, guitar-fetishising turds.

[hevusa]

Mary was just a slut that got knocked up and lied about it to her father so she wouldn't get beaten. I wish I had parents that were that naive.

Fuck religion is stupid. It is an assault to reality.

[SONIC GAIL]

Glice yr right about that shit. I think alot of men are more likely to hit on a grl here cause its not really rejection itis different when she is standing right in front of you.

sex drugs an rock n roll

i dont like sexism but when you walk into the lions den you know what yr walkin into

[knox]

Originally Posted by Glice

http://www.stereotypesabouthandbags.com

I should note it's only a certain sort of music. I've seen a few classical forums which, while dull, have minimal sexist content and a much more even distribution of sexes. Was Kittyradio not a bit more lady-friendly? I suppose the weird thing with SYG is that, for all of their association with various 'forward thinking' politics and whatnot, their fans seem primarily to be the male, white, m/c, guitar-fetishising turds.

actually... i was just talking to Jonathan and part of his job involves participating in a series of boards (mostly to do with social sciences, culture and adaptation nothing to do with music) and he said ALL of them have had recent discussions from women who were the minority and were being scared away by misogynist posting.

He told me the ratio is like 85% men (even tho those are SERIOUS boards) and their usual solution is to ban the woman that complains about it.

so I agree with the music guitar thing, but that's not just it.

[SONIC GAIL]

Originally Posted by hevusa

Mary was just a slut that got knocked up and lied about it to her father so she wouldn't get beaten. I wish I had parents that were that naive.

Fuck religion is stupid. It is an assault to reality.

]

what is your reality?


i bought me an illusion an i put it an the wall i let it fill my head with dreams an i had to have em all

[knox]

Originally Posted by SONIC GAIL

Glice yr right about that shit. I think alot of men are more likely to hit on a grl here cause its not really rejection itis different when she is standing right in front of you.

sex drugs an rock n roll

i dont like sexism but when you walk into the lions den you know what yr walkin into

But your attitude is part of the problem, and frankly what upsets me the most. Women were quite willing to send messages and talk to me and complain that they felt the same thing and didn't feel like posting, and weren't willing to participate as much on the board etc. etc., but when it came to complaining about it, they said they didn't want to take that shit.

So I gotta take that shit alone, because you're sitting there telling me you're willing to accept sexism.

This isn't the lions den. It'd be kind of justified if I had been posting on the playboy or esquire forum or something, but no, it's not like I had to be expecting it and it's not acceptable either.

[SONIC GAIL]

I don't agree with alot of other things on here either, but it is not my place to tell people what they can and cannot do. That would be judgemental, and as a christian that is not what i am. Im just here to interject my opinion. I recieve less sexisism here than in real life honestly. I can get what I want being a woman from a man just cause they like the way I look. In the store men run over to me "do you need some help"I get yelps and hollers everyday just trying to drive to work. In fact there were at least 3 different idiots at different times yelling sexist comments to me. Salesmen rarely listen to what I say because I am a woman. I get treated like crap from those that just see me as some dumb young bimbo.

Here the men actually LISTEN to what I say here and know to back off cause Im taken and forever will be. I am treated with respect here. That is all that matters to me. The day they start treating me like Im meat is the day they go on the ignore list.

I was always a huge Prude, porn hater, slut hater I wanted purity but that is naive to think that you can find purity here. I have learned that everyone has different views on things and I should not let myself get worked up about it. I just do the best I can to manage.

By lions den I mean this is a website of sin. Hell the whole internet is a lions den. You can find more disgust and bedlam here than anywhere. It is up to you to navigate yrself through the waves and onto the right paths.

[Glice]

Originally Posted by knox

actually... i was just talking to Jonathan and part of his job involves participating in a series of boards (mostly to do with social sciences, culture and adaptation nothing to do with music) and he said ALL of them have had recent discussions from women who were the minority and were being scared away by misogynist posting.

He told me the ratio is like 85% men (even tho those are SERIOUS boards) and their usual solution is to ban the woman that complains about it.

so I agree with the music guitar thing, but that's not just it.

I'm making a bit of a feeble case, I know. I do know that women use the internet just as much for men; I feel that, socially, a lot of women tend to use it for more personal connections rather than 'strangers', as on forums. You'll usually find that the average women has 50-100 more facebook friends than the average man, for instance, and I've noticed that most women will have a number of concurrent dialogues on fb.

I know there are plenty of areas which a lot of men don't tend to touch - I was lurking on some lgbt/ feminist boards earlier, and they tend to be really heavily moderated (rather than just removing the odd vocal woman) - I think for a lot of 'mature' forummers, that sort of thing is really appealing.

I know your beef is a bit wider than just misogyny, but out of curiosity, how do you feel about people like myself - as a heterosexual, horny toad - picking up on this sort of thing in forums?

[Glice]

Originally Posted by SONIC GAIL

I don't agree with alot of other things on here either, but it is not my place to tell people what they can and cannot do.

Not to criticise yourself, but I do feel that it's massively irritating how criticising something you find unpleasant is somehow telling someone what to do. The way it should work is that someone makes their complaint plain and there's a negotiation with that complaint. In knox's case, she's (rightly) irritated because her perfectly reasonable requests were ignored and brushed off as little more than 'feminazism'. That's really not fair on knox or anyone who quietly agrees with her.

[SONIC GAIL]

yeah negotiations do work better I fixed my signature when symbol guy complained about it linking to some website. she is right about the half naked woman appearing in the virgin mary thread. i didnt like that too much, i just didnt even read the post and scrolled on down to the ones I was interested in. an i dont think shes a feminazi either i respect her very much for her voracity

[knox]

Well , Gail then that makes you part of the problem. Because now you say you don’t like it, but it’s only the women who say something about it that end up taking bullshit. So, because you’re afraid of being disrespected (and seeing what happens I understand that), you’re also willing to allow other women to be in the receiving end of that, so with your silence you contribute to it.
So when you say you are respected, it really means you’re silent or not as aggressive when you express your opinions. You said it very clearly: you see it, you don't like it but you keep that to yourself.

I can’t help but wonder the outcome would have been different if knox was a black guy complaining he feels something on the board is disrespectful and makes black people uncomfortable. But for some reason, sexism isn’t so much of an issue and we don’t even have the right to feel disrespected.
The simply story is that after a long debate, everyone (including Rob, who was surprisingly willing) agreed that it was reasonable to keep photos in certain threads to stop scaring women away and making them feel uncomfortable. This happened after a discussion, nothing was imposed. So far, so good but at the first sign of that agreement being ignored I said something and the result was ridicule, disrespect and personal insults. (I sent a private message to explain myself better and received the same kind of disrespect as a response).
So, that obviously says his stand is: I do not care if women leave, if they feel uncomfortable, they can shut up or leave. Kind of sad and disheartening from someone I always considered intelligent and articulate.
I’ve read racist and sexist things on this board that astonished me. Glice is right when he says most SY fans are straight white males, but I know lots who are female and gay – they are no longer represented here. In fact, there’s only three of us posting regularly – me, you and ploesj. Are those all the women interested on this board? I doubt. Most of them aren’t active or have left and there are reasons for that. What happened to that girl who argued with atsonicpark when he said sexist things? Gone. And that other one who liked bikini kill and all? Gone.
You cannot convince me that there are only 3 women in the world interested in posting here and all the others just left for no reason. You just said – it makes you feel uncomfortable, it makes all women feel the same way. Perhaps I was naïve to think people were actually willing to make this place a little bit more comfortable for us?
I have no interest in being in all-female or all-male environments.
And about free speech – I think people are misguided if they think it means doing whatever they want while everyone else has to shut up about it. I’m exercising my right to free speech when I complain, I have to know what I do might have consequences.
You have values, I have values too – fairness. It isn’t fair on women who’d like to participate, and it isn’t fair or in any way proportional that I received that kind of treatment from symbol for pointing out I wasn’t too happy with his display of hypocrisy. The sad, sad lesson is that there are people out there that aren’t even willing to create a more female friendly environment. They’re quite happy to see them go away or feel afraid to express their opinions.
I’m not telling people what to do – I’m telling them what I think.
It doesn’t make me feel any less disrespected if that happens on the internet. Because what really insults me is the human neglect behind it, not where it happens.
It won’t scare ME away tho.
And Glice – I’m not sure what you meant, let me read your question again.

[knox]

What I do admit is being drunk and making use of my usual bitchy self when I complained about it - which still doesn't justify the response. But I don't think the response would have been different if I had been all nice and fragile in my complaint.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by knox

Yeah, I suppose I kind of forgot how sexist music is.

But, no, the internet IS a bit more sexist. Like you said, I think men are doing here what is frowned upon in "real life" now.

How can I get off the music forums? Where do you want me to go yahoo answers? Fashion blogs? Crochet tips?

Have you read Kim Gordon's tales about the summer Sonic Youth spent opening up for Neil Young and Crazy Horse?
she was dumbfounded by how overtly sexist and macho and mysoginistic the road crews and stage crews were, becasuse they were the same crews that had worked neil young's tours since the 70's, and they still carried that old "boys club" mentality.

[SONIC GAIL]

No, you are right. If you went to the extents of sending a pm explaining yr feelings and were just basically ignored that is not the way to treat someone and it does reflect on how they treat women in real life. People should have more consideracy towards others on the board. And yes since I started posting here I have seen a HUGE decline in us grls, and that very well may be the reason. I am sorry if you feel I am not on your side. I am not complacent, I just have so many other battles to fight I dont have the energy for them all. I aint goin no where either. and get drunk as ya can.

Please men......keep yr sexist comments pictures ect out of threads that are not relevant and you might see some more women on here. They might even talk to you.