[!@#$%!]

sure, chemistry is different, but why load the poor regular guy with guilt and sin on top of his limited brain? science describe facts, it does not ascribe value judgments. if you want to have the brain chemistry of a tibetan monk that is great, i'd say more practice! however buddhism's view of "sin" is VERY different that christianity's--- it's seen as a detour from enlightenment rather than some source of shame & guilt.

[nomadicfollower]

*stares wide-eyed while shoving popcorn in mouth*

[atari 2600]

Recipe for Evil/The Tyranny of the Ego:
1) Overidentify with a cause.
2) Elevate personal goals over concern for human consequences of decisions.
3) Lack empathy.

This is every one of us in a nutshell, most of the time.

It is the human responsibilty of the "normal" person in my little example to make his brain more like the Tibetan monk's. Persistent living in denial & failure to do so has evil consequences not only for the one in error, but for everyone. No one can ever be perfect & that is why the New Testament was written to not overly judge & to show that life is a process. Ultimately, we shouldn't ever pigeonhole someone as absolutely evil because all is stages on life's way. Still, one must have cause for concern & take the steps necesary to ever possibly break the tyranny of the ego or else one persists in error & truly never knows themselves.

Recipe for Good/Socratic principles on parade:
1) Self-knowledge is the sufficient condition to the good life. Knowledge cen be identified as related to virtue. If knowledge can be learned, so can virtue. Thus, virtue can be taught.
2) The unexamined life is not worth living. One must seek knowledge and wisdom before private interests. Knowledge is sought as a means to ethical action.
3) What one truly knows is the dictates of one's conscience or soul: the philosophy of the Socratic Paradox; i.e., that your life should be spent on the improvement of your soul.

[Daycare Nation]

sin is our translation of the Greek word "hamartia," which means "to miss the mark." It basically means "error." The idea is that the natural man persists in error until he experiences a fundamental transformation of mind and character (contrast the "normal guy" and the tibetan monk). The fundamental transformation is called "metanoia" and is the word we translate as repentance.

The extreme focus on shame and guilt did not occur until later in the church's history, probably middle ages. One can blame St. Augustine to a degree, who equated sin with sex because he had a neurosis about ejaculation and a fear of women.

[acousticrock87]

The New Testament actually is against guilt. It's not a "you're an evil person, repent sinner", although it comes off as that. "Evil" is just an initial state, apart from God. Essentially, God decided what would be "God's way" and "Satan's way". Man's mission is supposed to be to find God's way and keep to it, not revel in guilt and shame.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Daycare Nation

The extreme focus on shame and guilt did not occur until later in the church's history, probably middle ages. One can blame St. Augustine to a degree, who equated sin with sex because he had a neurosis about ejaculation and a fear of women.

now we're talking... though you skipped st. paul

[Daycare Nation]

Okay...let's talk.

[!@#$%!]

by "now we're talking" i meant you put the finger on the festering ulcer that is much religious thinking. which unfortunately dominates popular religion-- the sicker, the more popular.

[Daycare Nation]

Most of the negative stuff attributed to St. Paul was written after Paul's death by others who used his name. There are only a few books which modern scholars are willing to attribute to Paul. The popular opinion of St. Paul is thus flawed and misinformed.

I recommend reading The Moral Teachings of Paul by Victor Furnish, which should put things in perspective.

[atari 2600]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

sure, chemistry is different, but why load the poor regular guy with guilt and sin on top of his limited brain? science describe facts, it does not ascribe value judgments. if you want to have the brain chemistry of a tibetan monk that is great, i'd say more practice! however buddhism's view of "sin" is VERY different that christianity's--- it's seen as a detour from enlightenment rather than some source of shame & guilt.

I completely get what you're saying there. Christians do have an annoying tendency to judge too harshly & to puff themselves up. This is not what I get out of Jesus' teachings, however, quite the opposite.
The "normal" person's brain (per the example) is not "limited", though. The threshold for their intelligence may be determined largely by genetics & environment as well, but any person can use their will no matter what their circumstance to improve themselves & gain self-knowledge, & as a result, knowledge of the Good & knowledge of God. Intelligence is relative anyway, Wisdom isn't. A person's true spiritual potential, depite the common albatross of dread & the human condition, is actually pretty unlimited except for the fact that they will always inhabit a corporeal body while they are alive. Some people try to move beyond this limitation in their illumination & become what are diagnosed as schizophrenics.

[!@#$%!]

oh, right, great. so nobody is now responsible for the flea-ridden, plague-carrying rat that is christianity. it's all a bunch of anonymous people!

[acousticrock87]

I like how there were four God vs. Satan threads, and this spawned from the Girls vs. Satan thread...

[alyasa]

Yeah the third is Queen, coz' they're immortal and have inside them blood of kings... See, it's like your soul is a bargaining chip; so what would you rather have? Eternal suffering in the afterlife or eternal suffering in this life? And most of the problem of today's major religions is one of fear and loathing... They have no concept of tolerance, because the people practicing them have no concept of tolerance; because the governments and the system has never really, truly advocated tolerance(wars, sanctions, hate crimes) and there is a difference between politics and religion I believe; albeit very subtle and sublime.

[Daycare Nation]

Originally Posted by alyasa

Yeah the third is Queen, coz' they're immortal and have inside them blood of kings... See, it's like your soul is a bargaining chip; so what would you rather have? Eternal suffering in the afterlife or eternal suffering in this life? And most of the problem of today's major religions is one of fear and loathing... They have no concept of tolerance, because the people practicing them have no concept of tolerance; because the governments and the system has never really, truly advocated tolerance(wars, sanctions, hate crimes) and there is a difference between politics and religion I believe; albeit very subtle and sublime.

Things were fine until the Edict of Milan legalized Christianity, and then Constantine had to make it the state religion...from then on it losts its original values and became associated with imperialism.

True Christianity though is not an institution, it is a way of living.

[Daycare Nation]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

oh, right, great. so nobody is now responsible for the flea-ridden, plague-carrying rat that is christianity. it's all a bunch of anonymous people!

Yes, although we can blame certain people such as Athanasius and Irenaeus, who were major assholes IMO.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Daycare Nation

True Christianity though is not an institution, it is a way of living.

i'd rather live my life without thinking myself as a "lamb" that needs a "shepherd". and the meek shall inherit the dirt

ok, i gotta go unfortunately. dinner time. not just bread but meat and salad and some nice wine.

[atari 2600]

Originally Posted by Daycare Nation

Things were fine until the Edict of Milan legalized Christianity, and then Constantine had to make it the state religion...from then on it losts its original values and became associated with imperialism.

true, & a good historical point. Absolute Power corrupts absolutely. Religion & State should always be kept separate. Jesus said so himself in the saying attributed to him:
"Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's & to God what is God's."

Constantine had a crumbling empire spread far too thin on his hands & converted to Christianity to hopefully whip the people into shape & once again instill a work ethic back into society. The Cult of Dionysus, great wealth & power, & improved quality of life & mostly, the Circus Maximus, which had come to monopolize the Roman calendar in lieu of work, had made the Roman Empire extremely lax & weak & subject to barbarian invaders. Ultimately though, he did a profound disservice to the religion & everyone is familiar (or at least should be) with the horrible abuses of the Roman Catholic church during the Middle Ages that followed as a direct result. Yep, folks, evil does exist.

[!@#$%!]

ps- it was not nero but THE CHRISTIANS that burned rome. what a rabble!!

[Daycare Nation]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

ps- it was not nero but THE CHRISTIANS that burned rome. what a rabble!!

Those Christians! always up to something

[alyasa]

Imperfections on the surface of a perfect world, or the pinnacle of God's creations, marred by the vagaries and inconsistencies of a warped world? It becomes an ego trip, I notice most religions; and if you add guilt and suffering to the mix; an already volatile set of beliefs becomes absolutely bloody with hostility and aggresiveness. It's basically; the God I believe in is truer than the one you believe in, because the power of my belief is stronger and the faith suffused within me has the ability to drown out all other truths... Very fundemental nature of man, I think. So when people see the destruction and power of something like, say, Hurricane Katrina; their very core is shaken and all the guilt and blame surfaces; and though they would do better(IMHO) to look to God for the answers; they seem content to look for people to execute. Fundemental nature. Can't run from it... Where's the ubermensch when you need him?