[RdTv]

Originally Posted by SonicBebs

ok, i get the stuff about possibilities and ideals (and quite admire it) but you cant say that homeless people (for instance) are there because they are lazy and deserve to be? Or that the only reason people aren't rich is because they dont work hard enough?

Read my post.

[SonicBebs]

Originally Posted by RdTv

You may have had a family, you may have been fired, you may lost your house, you may have had countless bad things happen, one after another. Escaping with the help from crack and meth won't help you with any of it.

so stop whingeing and go get a job? good dream.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by _slavo_

I kind of got the idea what that expression might mean.
it's the fact that unless you're a fucking lazy asshole, you have a high possibility to earn yourself a good career and a decent middle-class life. because there are possibilites to take advantage of. and everything seems so much easier there than anywhere else I've been to...like buying a car, getting a good education and yada yada. you just have to work hard, that's it.
but maybe i just didn't spend a long enough time in the US to get the right point.

I think that is exactly right.

when I was young, married, earning $7 an hour with my then-wife earning $6 an hour, I woudl think myself poor, but I paid my bills, I lived in a home with carpet, and central air an heat, I had a stove and a fridge and relative seciruty. I had a car, a TV, a video game system, records, and maybe, just maybe, a bit of money to spend on ganja eevery few months. I would look around and marvel sometimes at the way I saw everything, because I have relatives in puerto rico who woudl consider my then-situation to be anIDEAL to strive for, but it was something I looked down upon, in my youth and stupidity. There are peopel in the world, MANY people in many many nations , who work their asses off all their lives and never even get close to the "comfort" and "stability" which I used to see as SHIT.

[acousticrock87]

Originally Posted by RdTv

^Well, yes, the homeless is another issue. While many have legitimate problems and things beyond their control( this actually applies to everyone when you think about it) to warrant their current situation. A lot of homeless folk are their by choice, or lack of making a choice. The US government has all types of aid programs and special services to ''help'' people get food, housing, college degree, medical care, etc... Many of the homeless are basically choosing not to take advantage. everyone has bad times, and yes, your background has a lot to do with where you could start out in the real world, but its non-sense to believe that everysingle homeless person is a victim of anything more than this system which effects all of us.

You may have had a family, you may have been fired, you may lost your house, you may have had countless bad things happen, one after another. Escaping with the help from crack and meth won't help you with any of it.

I completely agree. However, I think it's extremely important to keep an eye on those who can't help themselves. I think it is more destructive to focus on the lazy people who deserve to be poor, than to ignore those who don't.

The way I see it is: Why would you sit on the shore to debate whether a man is actually drowning, or just faking it?

[SonicBebs]

Originally Posted by RdTv

Read my post.

i posted before i saw your post, i was replying to Rob

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by pbradley

This entire thread is evidence against your assertion.

no it is not. it is evidence that people are just answering what their own personal dreams are.

[pbradley]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

no it is not. it is evidence that people are just answering what their own personal dreams are.

And they're all wrong and you are right?

[Derek]

Yes pbradley.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by pbradley

I've seen you rant before against the promise of heaven after death as an opiate of the people.

If these are both dreams, what saves the former from condemnation?

The american dream comes true every single day

when you see people born to the worst poverty, who work hard and become someone they can be proud of. when you see immigrants who sell their property, belongings, and even their "soul" to come to the usa to work hard and start a business and become self-sufficient and provide for their kids
when you see someone who learns to read at age 40, and proceeds to get a Masters degree from college and become something, when you see a shit ass hood rat bust his ass to create a music empire. fuck man, it is all around you

[RdTv]

I take back everything I said and rebuke all past correct definitions...The American Dream is:

 

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by SonicBebs

ok, i get the stuff about possibilities and ideals (and quite admire it) but you cant say that homeless people (for instance) are there because they are lazy and deserve to be? Or that the only reason people aren't rich is because they dont work hard enough?

you are taking it to exterems. the goal is not to become rich. few get to do that. it is to be in control of your own life, to earn enough to not cry because you have no idea where your children;s next eal is coming from, much less your own.

of course there is homlessness and pain and sosrrow and injustice. the world's not perfect. the "dream" si that one can, through hard work and dedication, rise above it.

there are many reasons people become homeless, and may homeless do not sdtay homeless forever. they work and eventually pullthemselves up. there ARE a TON of homeless that are mentally ill. thay cannot help what they do, or why they are there and they need help from us who are luckier.
there are also LOTS of lazy ass motherfuckers who choose to stay homeless because there is no responsibility i it, and they like it that way.

nothing can be painted with one brush.

[pbradley]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

The american dream comes true every single day

when you see people born to the worst poverty, who work hard and become someone they can be proud of. when you see immigrants who sell their property, belongings, and even their "soul" to come to the usa to work hard and start a business and become self-sufficient and provide for their kids
when you see someone who learns to read at age 40, and proceeds to get a Masters degree from college and become something, when you see a shit ass hood rat bust his ass to create a music empire. fuck man, it is all around you

All momentary. The foreign worker loses his job to out sourcing to his homeland, the business fails when the recession rolls into town, the Master's degree is useless, the music empire goes bankrupt.

The American dream is exposed as a fraud every single day. Looking at the best cases will not resolve the worst.

[acousticrock87]

Optimism has its place, but not when it's convincing people to treat all under- and lower-class citizens as lazy motherfuckers. It deadens compassion and says, "You just need to work harder" instead of offering a hand.

[SonicBebs]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

of course there is homlessness and pain and sosrrow and injustice. the world's not perfect. the "dream" si that one can, through hard work and dedication, rise above it.

thats my problem. that implies that if you haven't risen above it, then it's your fault. you're the lazy one. I dont agree with that.

[Rob Instigator]

you guys are adding to it.

the american dream is a dream, and ideal, something to strive for. as with all things, it can be used to uplift or it an eb used (by callous assholes) to denigrate and ignore those suffering.

that is a whole other issue.

to say that, if you work hard enough you can achieve some measure of success, is not the same as saying those who have not gotten the "success" must be lazy fucks who do not work hard.

that is faulty logic, and an old rhetorical trick.

Yeah Rob, but that type of populist ideal is everyone's dream, even after you finished dreaming of destroying those who don't agree with your nice but dubious intentions.

[acousticrock87]

I mean, clearly we have the same ideal in mind--we would both like to seek out the most uplifting philosophy. No one is doubting that. But when people do need a helping hand, the American dream ideology has a tendency to make the well-off (middle- and upper-classes) hesitant to help.

Like, when I see a homeless person asking for money, I always feel bad that my first thought is "I wonder if he really needs it." And more often than not, I don't help because I assume the person is probably just lazy. And while there are deeper principles involved in that specific case (give a fish vs. teach to fish, etc.), I think that is an unhealthy default. It's a personal struggle against the mindset that, I believe, is rooted in the concept of the American dream.

[samuel]

Originally Posted by acousticrock87

What Rob said is technically correct, but in reality the American dream is a subconsciously capitalist ideology imposed on the middle class for oppressing the poor.

Okay. I thought you said this "ideology" is what caused the middle class to oppress the poor. But regardless, upper class or middle class, how are poor people oppressed?

[acousticrock87]

Originally Posted by samuel

Okay. I thought you said this "ideology" is what caused the middle class to oppress the poor. But regardless, upper class or middle class, how are poor people oppressed?

They're (sometimes, of course) treated as lazy and ignored when they actually do need help.

[samuel]

I think there are plenty of programs and volunteer organizations that help out enough. I don't know... I guess you don't.