[Conrad]

See, I'd never even apply at a place that would make me wear a short skirt. I'd wear one cause I want to, but never cause someone said so.

I also refuse to dye my hair just to get a job, fuck that shit.

[akprodr]

Originally Posted by Conrad

I wish other women didn't have to do either.

What about people who WANT to do it? I'm sure its a small number but I've met some who seem to really enjoy it. Including one who came back to it even though she no longer needed the money--just liked doing it.




On the other hand, Onyx, mentioned above, says she never wants to think about it once she's done. And, she is extremely good at what she does.

[Dead-Air]

Originally Posted by Conrad

See, I'd never even apply at a place that would make me wear a short skirt. I'd wear one cause I want to, but never cause someone said so.

I also refuse to dye my hair just to get a job, fuck that shit.

nobody made her. she did it to get better tips. I don't think you'll find anybody alive of either gender who won't tip a nice attractive person better than a purely nice one. men are surely worse though.

[automatic bzooty]

some people feel that being a stripper would be degrading... some people might feel that having a desk job is degrading.

work's work. not that it's all that easily simplified, buuuuut...

[Conrad]

LIKE I SAID

If you wanna do it, go ahead! Dance naked for money and wear short skirts while you waitress. It's just something I wouldn't ever do because I refuse to be seen as an object even if I someone was paying me to do so.

Just stating my opinion, which I am entitled too. I'm not being some bible thumping bitch who is telling you all that you're going to hell.

And since that is my opinion, I'm glad that Satan didn't become a stripper because I dislike the idea of men thinking she is an object, even though she would be making money. It's not like if she became one I'd be all, "How sad "

[automatic bzooty]

i wouldn't do it either, not in a billion years. even if i had marvelous tits.

just sayin'

[Dead-Air]

Originally Posted by automatic bzooty

i wouldn't do it either, not in a billion years. even if i had marvelous tits.

just sayin'

I would if I was female, in a second, but I suppose that does nothing to prove that strippers aren't brainless whores desperate for attention.

[Anngella]

If I had a better face I would seriously consider stripping.

Alas, I work fast food, which is obviously still degrading.

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by Conrad

See, I'd never even apply at a place that would make me wear a short skirt.

I'm the same

[knox]

why are women ashamed of embracing the word feminism?

[knox]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

I'm the same

Me too. However, if someone wants to strip for money, I think they are entitled to. I do worry that having to deal with "customers" who objectify you on a daily basis, as well as other situations potentiallly crushing to your self-confidence, there is little one could do to keep one's self worth intact.

[akprodr]

Originally Posted by Dead-Air

but I suppose that does nothing to prove that strippers aren't brainless whores desperate for attention.

In my experience, strippers have above average intelligence. They have to be able to talk to a huge range of men. Attention seekers? Well, let me say this:

How many strippers does it take to change a light bulb? One, she stands still and the world revolves around her.

Now, the FUNNY part is that, to a girl, strippers find that hilarious.

[notyourfiend]

how did i, the resident feminazi, miss this thread?

anywho i've over thought this topic far too many times.

sex work is degrading because you are reducing yourself to your genitalia, plasticizing your sexuality, inevidably falling into misogynist traps etc. however most work is degrading because you are selling yourself for a service. certain sex workers have a lot more agency than others. it depends on issues of class/what joints you are working it/if you have a pimp or men you have to rent time from etc.

i've mentioned this before but i went out to dinner with tristan taormino (a very famous feminist pornographer) and a couple of her friends/lovers earlier this year. (yes amerikangod, i do have a picture to prove this.) the two of us share the idea that one of the most feminist actions you can take is to advocate sexual pleasure. there is so much attention to issues of sexual pain/violence that we forget that the vagina can also be associated with mind blowing orgasms. tristan believes that she is changing the world by creating new pornographic images which a)are instructional (check out vivid-ed) and b) in which the actors/actresses have parts in creating their own scenes and are legitimately turned on c)profitable for the sex workers who are involved with the scenes. that's great! it's good to know that there are sex workers out there who actually have okay working situations. still, tristan and other like-minded third wavers get carried away though and forget that for the majority of sex workers around the world are treated like slaves.

[akprodr]

Originally Posted by notyourfiend

sex work is degrading because you are reducing yourself to your genitalia,

forget that for the majority of sex workers around the world are treated like slaves.

What I hear you saying is that, even though it has been demonstrated that sex work CAN have positive implications, even those people should not do it because other people are oppressed?




I'm currently watching re-runs of the only 'reality' show I can watch: America's Next Top Model. I really don't see a big difference between 'legit' modeling and sex work. In both you are objectivified and potentially treated like meat. In both you will potentially work nude but in one you show your genitals and one you don't.

I don't see a huge difference.


And I really disagree that stripping is 'reducing yourself to genitals'. When I go to a club, I want to have a woman (girl, actually--but that is another aspect) entertain me. And yes, a part of that is lookin' at genitals but that is only a part.

[pbradley]

But pornography is distinctly different from striptease and prostitution. Sometimes I think people who produce publishable media tend to overestimate the impact the condition of publishing has in "changing the world" and I don't consider pornography is at all a port for social change. The pornographic image, in my mind, is not an ideal image but is a carnal, imperfect messy image and, therefore, cannot convey those kinds of ideas. It's the confusion of those ideas that is erotic and its abandonment of those concerns beyond getting respective organs to erupt that is pornographic.

There's a world of difference, though, between something previously recorded being played on a screen versus being there in the flesh. In all honest, in the number of times that I have gone to strip clubs, I become timid and disquieted by just simply being within that atmosphere of flesh-money exchange. And it isn't because of any kind of puritan ethic about the sexual body, it's more about the money and how there is a price on everything. Or, rather, it seems to me that the strip club is the place where everything else that exists begins to have a price, the genesis of metaphysical capitalism. It's also how a strip club can be so absolutely intimate while simultaneously rejecting all intimacy that bugs me. Nauseating.

[Glice]

Originally Posted by Conrad

LIKE I SAID

If you wanna do it, go ahead! Dance naked for money and wear short skirts while you waitress. It's just something I wouldn't ever do because I refuse to be seen as an object even if I someone was paying me to do so.

Just stating my opinion, which I am entitled too. I'm not being some bible thumping bitch who is telling you all that you're going to hell.

And since that is my opinion, I'm glad that Satan didn't become a stripper because I dislike the idea of men thinking she is an object, even though she would be making money. It's not like if she became one I'd be all, "How sad "

This seems ridiculous from the person who put pictures of herself all over the internet, specifically this site. Which is to say that when you do that, you make yourself an object for 'the male gaze'. I would draw the line between someone posting an image on a messageboard so others can see what you look like and doing almost nothing but post pictures of yourself. Objectification doesn't stop just because the 'receiver' is absent, or obscure.

I've nothing to offer on the subject of strippers except that if it is degrading, it's degrading in two directions.

[akprodr]

Originally Posted by pbradley

In all honest, in the number of times that I have gone to strip clubs, I become timid and disquieted just simply being within that atmosphere of flesh-money exchange.

That's funny. I actually like that part. I find it honest--brutally so. We live in a captialist society where everything is a commodity to be sold. Take a girl on a first date and your playing a game where the rules and outcome are undefined. In a strip club, the rules and outcome are predetermined. (For the record, I believe that I have some amount of Asberger's--could factor in here.)

I find the more accurate equation is the time-money exchange. The nudity part is what it is.

It's also how a strip club can be so absolutely intimate while it rejects all intimacy that bugs me.

very true

also, your sig quote is spot on for this thread!

[floatingslowly]

I've honestly never been inside a titty-bar.

I'm too cheap to pay for something that's free.

[knox]

Originally Posted by Glice

This seems ridiculous from the person who put pictures of herself all over the internet, specifically this site. Which is to say that when you do that, you make yourself an object for 'the male gaze'. I would draw the line between someone posting an image on a messageboard so others can see what you look like and doing almost nothing but post pictures of yourself. Objectification doesn't stop just because the 'receiver' is absent, or obscure.

I've nothing to offer on the subject of strippers except that if it is degrading, it's degrading in two directions.

it depends.
a face represents identity, there are so many things pictures can represent.
usually with sex workers, their faces are not that relevant, the idea that they have an identity outside their sexuality is not the point in that context.
Personally, I love seeing people's faces. I love to know they are real people.
That really hasn't got much to do with exposing yourself to be objectified sexually.
Now if men do that regardless of your intentions, that is another story.
I don't think it's right to expect women to AVOID doing things because of how they COULD be percieved by sexist eyes.
How many times will a woman be doing something as innocent and absent-minded as sitting down, arranging her hair and be accused of trying be seductive, therefore worthy of objectification? Should I be self concious at all times in order to prevent the "male gaze" from doing that? Or should men stop excusing themselves, acting like it was called for?

What woman doesn't like admiration? But one must know the difference between admiring and degrading. The healthy and unhealthy.

I guess what I am trying to say is that there is a tendency to separate sexuality from personality and individuality, and not enough material or behaviour out there accepts that those things are always together.

There is a huge difference between wanting to be sexy and wanting to be objectified.

If some women feel empowered by stripping in a context, I don't see a problem in that as long as people don't start assuming that´s what we all should feel. The greatest problem with feminism is that it tends to ignore women are individuals and feel differently about things.

now that it is degrading in two directions i agree. i sometimes wonder if prostitution is more degrading for the prostitute or the client.

[pbradley]

All this talk about objectification is kicking me in the shins. I'm just deleted a long rant about my contempt for the plurality of meaning in objectivity.