[dead_battery]

suchfriends, much of what you talk about happened here.

replace blacks with catholics and whites with protestants in the following sentences - blacks can't get jobs and are denied housing by discriminating bodies of whites. blacks live in squalor yet white councillors take government money and spend it only on their own communities. whites make it very difficult for blacks to vote. whites try and rig the system in any way they can.

blacks can't stand this anymore and start to demand rights (directly copying the examples of martin luther king etc.). whites get jumpy about these blacks and their strength. whites claim (rightfully) that some of their communities are also in squalor. blacks realize whites are not listening and end up becoming militant. some whites get killed. the whites get militant themselves and call in the british army (national guard in your terms). shit hits the fan and there's lots of boom boom, only everyone has the same skin colour so its more difficult to know whose on whose side.

whites continue to discriminate and claim blacks are evil/directly controlled by satan/communist/terrorist/whining/violent savages etc.

-

but as all this shit is going on, the BOTH white and black paramilitaries are buying drugs using the same suppliers (while beating up anyone else selling drugs and taking away their market share, then claiming they are protecting communities from the drugs scourge). they both end up murdering many of their own side. they both terrorize the decent non violent people. they both are up to their necks in crime, extortion etc.

they control their communities by ENDLESSLY reducing everything to tribalism - white vs. black. they whip up fear to keep the communities divided and voting for them - the extremist parties with links to the paramilitaries. they restart the parliament but only because its in their interest. they slowly, slowly start to talk about introducing the changes that will take away the tribalism, yet at the first sign of trouble they start riling up the divisions again, in spite of the cost to the economy.

the ENTIRE THING is a way of avoiding the fact that BOTH whites and blacks are FUCKED OVER by the same economic system. and its usually the POOREST blacks and whites that fall for, or deliberately embrace this stupid shit.

the ONLY WAY we will ever get out of this cycle of a few years of calm then the resumption of tribal warfare is if the poorest are united - if the communities mix, if they share schools, if they live side by side instead of in tribal painted housing estates (projects).

you can talk endlessly about the injustices suffered and perpetuated by BOTH sides but the fact is this doesn't get us anywhere.

-

i know what my ancestors did when they came here and looted and murdered. they trotted on their horses past heaps of corpses of the natives with green mouths from eating grass and nettles due to starvation. we burnt all their fields and stole their grain stores and deliberately starved them.

i also walk over the bridge where, one fine day in the 16th century, THEY rounded US up, marched us to the bridge then THREW US IN THE WATER and stabbed us if we tried to swim to shore, because they realized there was a bad winter on the way, thus a bad harvest, and they wanted to strike first before we looted them again! lol!

i also walk past the street were my family used to own a business, a business which took considerable risk by hiring black workers. the black terrorist group (ira) went on to blow it up a few years later.

so as appealing as it is to do identity politics, its often playing into your enemies hands.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by dead_battery

so as appealing as it is to do identity politics, its often playing into your enemies hands.

/game/set/thread

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to dead_battery again.

dead_batter, I agree with you, but there is honestly a world of difference between mutually white Catholic and Protestants getting into a quasi-religious, blatantly political civil war, and the intense racialization structurally of the American economy, political machinery, and culture. Further and again, the very economy and class war in America is uniquely divided around racial parameters, and this is deeply embedded over literally several generations. Generational poverty is the hardest to overcome, and in the American experience this generational poverty is distinctly divided along racial lines. Yes, Irish Catholics and Protestants didn't get along (I'm sorry to over simplify the analysis here) but if they sat at a pub together and didn't open their mouth or wear ostentatious clothing with identifiable insignia, they could more or less blend and get along. Skin color differences are not so lucky. Black is black period, and even a middle-class or rich black man will always be most visibly black to his opponents. Your analysis is cool, but inaccurate to this particular American situation, regardless or not if !@#$%! wants to be your fanboy

The thing about racialized identity politics, is they are imposed on you from the other, from the outside, from the racist structure. Black and brown folks don't necessarily willfully or excitedly adopt these systems, rather, the racist superstructure and minority of elitist white males enforce these structures by force, by default.

We can surely use some of the lessons learned from the experience in Ireland, but there are also certain aspects which simply don't translate.

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

/game/set/thread

 

I see you troll!

[dead_battery]

also - i know that post was long as fuck - but maybe a better example than whites and blacks is whites and native americans.

ireland is like this - we (english) came here but we didnt do enough genocide on the natives like you guys, and they didnt put up with our limey fagocracy, also they have the same skin colour and thus you cant racially profile them so easily.

[dead_battery]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to dead_battery again.

dead_batter, I agree with you, but there is honestly a world of difference between mutually white Catholic and Protestants getting into a quasi-religious, blatantly political civil war, and the intense racialization structurally of the American economy, political machinery, and culture.

We can surely use some of the lessons learned from the experience in Ireland, but there are also certain aspects which simply don't translate.

 

I see you troll!

fair enough, but i doubt the republicans hate it when the national crop of wage slaves are too busy arguing about skin colour to realize they're all united in poverty.

[dead_battery]

 

 

 

here's one - funeral terrorism. my side throws grenades.

more funeral terrorism - the other side beats some guys to death

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

But don't you get it, black and brown folks are not arguing among themselves about skin color, they are busy fighting economically, politically, and socially AGAINST the system of oppression and racism. That is where !@%%! is simply talking out of his ass, its not a victim mentality, quite the opposite, its tackling head on the enemy of societal equality which in America is racism. Simply put, we will NEVER have an economically equal or balanced society, there will always inherently be some people with more resources than others. However, we can surely ALL get along racially if we work at it. THAT is what I am talking about. People, black, brown, and white working together to ELIMINATE racism from the superstructure of America, but that involves KNOWING YOUR ENEMY, and the enemy here is racism. If we wishful thinking pretend its not our enemy, the enemy wins in the shadows. If we call the out, shed light onto their darkness, and stand up for what is right, then we put the racist structure on the defense. Its worked in the past, its working in the present, it will continue to work in the future, that is, unless rose-lens viewing "Democrats" like !@#$%! and his kind don't become obstructionists accusing those of us fighting the good fight as being primitive

[dead_battery]

ok - but is racism a problem for whites?

i mean - not really. not for a few decades yet. or maybe now in parts of south africa.

eliminating racism - ok - but in practice this often turns out to be white people taking the blame for everything bad that happens to black people, and white people being addressed as both the cause of the evil and the same person that has to stop it.

this doesn't really get any of the non white races equality. i mean, is there an END GAME for anti racist struggles or does it just go on forever? does it have distinctive goals that it wants to achieve that would accomplish its mission? if not then its interminable and i think that that is beneficial to white people who have a kind of secular fantasy of themselves as the redeemers of the minorities through their tolerance and liberal democratic inclusion.

im more pessimistic than you. i think that whatever race is in the majority and in control of the resources and power structure is the one that doesnt suffer from racism and its the others that do. i think no matter what colour of skin is involved that will not change.

however i could be totally wrong. i'd like to be wrong and for there to be some sort of TRUE post racial social order.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

those of us fighting the good fight as being primitive

you're not "primitive". it's your ideologies that are primitive. you're just mule-headed and a bit of a monomaniac-- "to the man with a hammer every problem is a nail" sort of thing.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

 

I know you are but what am I..

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

 

I know you are but what am I..

hey you can call me arrogant and a prick and whatever, fine, that's what i am. can you admit to being a stubborn mule sometimes who won't concede a point just out of stubbornness? i mean, it would do me a lot of good to be less of a dick when arguing but it would also do you a lot of good to be a little more open-minded to other people's point of view without trying to subsume their ideas into "what you already know." it's not a capitulation to learn from others.

[dead_battery]

everyone who benefits from the current state of things, except certain far right republicans and white nationalist types, and people who cant stop making racist jokes - would often prefer EVERY ISSUE to turn into a racial issue. because its so easy to reduce our sins and problems to one single thing - racism.

seriously, a guy can be racist or say racist jokes and still be a fine guy in other respects. there are certain people on the left now making racism into something worse than witchcraft or sin or satanism or whatever. they are, IMO, DELIBERATELY turning racism into the equivalent of the most extreme almost cartoonish version of the original prejudice whites had against blacks. like its almost as if they, only half sub consciously, want to turn racism into a branding iron that can be applied to almost anyone, thus stripping them of their job/future career/life. its as if they enjoy feeling so guilty about what our predecessors did to blacks, they want to now take that same vicious vile hatred out on US in a kind of self directed masochism. like they are secretly in love with that kind of power and hate. i KNOW what we, as in our predecessors did, was fucking evil, but the answer is not MORE punishment.

you know what i think is going on here? in some cases (not all obviously) this is functioning as a kind of hysterical game.

i think that one of the reasons anti racism is so successful is that it functions as a CODE that allows us to replace the difficulty of morality with dogma. its very easy for a commercial society to preach anti racism.

for certain white people, being NOT racist in the right way is a way to signal status (im not a poor white im a high cultured white).

lets be honest - its also about putting blacks in their place - which is slightly lower than us because they need our condescension and tolerance to even exist. they are always BLACK people before they are just people. whereas we white people are just people. again - this is only in certain cases and im not saying this crap in anyway removes the need for anti racist struggles.

i just cant be totally comfortable being inherently on the side of all white anti racists anymore, since even though they are on the right side, they ARE now using this stuff to stifle freedom of speech. even if its the freedom of speech for stupid douchebags talking shit most of the time.

what happened to the idea that you respected your enemies folly because you knew your way was more noble, and you were asking for freedom of speech for EVERYONE? i think we GOT inclusivity (at least culturally) and now we are stalled with it, because if we took it further in the right direction it would lead back to economics. and thats too difficult for us to face.

[!@#$%!]

ps my game/set/thread wasn't meant as trolling but rather as to signify that db had distilled the whole argument to its essence-- the politics of self-defeat-- and given it a final answer (in my eyes anyway).

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

hey you can call me arrogant and a prick and whatever, fine, that's what i am. can you admit to being a stubborn mule sometimes who won't concede a point just out of stubbornness?

yes, but in this particular instance there is good reason to remain stubborn, its a matter of principle. If you sell out your principles for the sake of polite conversation, nothing gets accomplished. Racism is an oblivious disease. Sometimes people need to be shouted out to come to the realization that they are infected. I'm very stubborn about these kinds of matters, yes even admittedly mule headed, but these are fundamental, core issue. I can't bitch out. The flag has got to be hoisted!

 

Originally Posted by dead_battery

ok - but is racism a problem for whites?

i mean - not really. not for a few decades yet. or maybe now in parts of south africa.

Yes, I am white, I have a problem with it, so do a lot of white folks in my family, friendship, and work-place. The thing about structural racism is it was imposed by a minority of elitist whites, and that means that as with Abolition or with the Civil Rights era, white folks are going to have to get off their ass and get involved daily.

eliminating racism - ok - but in practice this often turns out to be white people taking the blame for everything bad that happens to black people,

That is a typical knee-jerk reaction to defensive whites about uppity minorities trying to rock the boat. The boat needs to be rocked. Yes, inherently white folks will lose some of their privilege, but simply put, a lot of white folks don't necessarily want it anyways. Ending racism is not a "white people suck" pity party, its about assessing the racial situation. If there is a gap in economy, then it must be addressed. If there is a gap in government representation, that must be addressed. If there is a gap in neighborhoods and communities and places of worship, that must be addressed. If there is a gap in educational quality and attainment, that must be addressed. Its not a finger-pointed game, its about tackling real life problems with pragmatic solutions. This means hiring black and brown people, period. This means ending redlining in housing and community redevelopment, period. This means ending gerrymandering political borders to benefit racial divisions (like the way "Repubicans" here in California have recently rezoned and redistricted their boundaries to included predominantly white areas even when these make ZERO sense geographically).. THESE are the solutions, just bitching and moaning neither sitting on your hands and pretending the problem has already been solved are not.

does it have distinctive goals that it wants to achieve that would accomplish its mission?

Yes, relative economic, political, educational, and cultural equality. If there is any instances of racial inequality in these fields, then there is still a fight left to win.

if not then its interminable and i think that that is beneficial to white people who have a kind of secular fantasy of themselves as the redeemers of the minorities through their tolerance and liberal democratic inclusion.

I agree, these folks live in a fantasy. However, there are still plenty of people every day, black, white, and brown, working together in the trenches, working in public education, working in community development, working in government, to make a positive difference.

im more pessimistic than you.

I do suffer from painful optimism this is true

however i could be totally wrong. i'd like to be wrong and for there to be some sort of TRUE post racial social order.

You're not totally wrong, just not entirely right either

[dead_battery]

yeah. just skip all my long posts.

tl:dr i win.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

No, I read every single word, and enjoyed the conversation (serious)

When you're not trolling, you're an intelligent and thoughtful person to discuss divisive political and economic matters, but when you're trolling all bets are off!

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

yes, but in this particular instance there is good reason to remain stubborn, its a matter of principle. If you sell out your principles for the sake of polite conversation, nothing gets accomplished. Racism is an oblivious disease. Sometimes people need to be shouted out to come to the realization that they are infected. I'm very stubborn about these kinds of matters, yes even admittedly mule headed, but these are fundamental, core issue. I can't bitch out. The flag has got to be hoisted!

but that's the flag of self-defeat. resentment is toxic and addictive. it leads to self-destruction.

and i'm not after polite conversation, i'm after some kind of "truth," which in order to be pursued requires openness to other points of view. i'm not threatened by "other" ideas and over the years i've changed my position on a lot of issues because i discover and see new things. being open-minded is not being a sellout. and braying in anger only makes one's ideas look ridiculous which is why i laughed the other day. obama explained it better.

so, in short-- your racialized ideology is doomed to fail because it perpetuates self-destructive resentment and the shirking of responsibility by externalizing all blame to an abstract "white man." IT'S A WASTE OF TIME. it's better to spend one's time making something useful rather than holding on to ancient grudges.

and yes, i see racism every day, even coming from "nice people", but that's not an excuse to fuck up or stop working or to waste life in anger. or to think that *everything is about race*.

[dead_battery]

ok - i and other non american people REALLY have a problem with this concept of privilege - because im sorry - shouldn't privilege be EXTENDED not removed?

you are not going to convince me that if in a society some people have more privilege than others they have to renounce it. the aim is always to extend it.

this might just be the european way, but, for example, if i hold open a door for a lady i WILL NOT EVER buy this stuff about how i'm treating her as inferior. if someone gets treated with extra politeness and sensitivity then that's a rare example of humanity being civilized and not an expression of preferential bias that in itself somehow takes anything away from someone who doesn't get the same deference.

also - im sorry but i DO NOT see myself as having to engage in a permanent struggle for the sake of anti racism. i am not going to treat people badly because of their race. when race comes into my life i am going to try and be blind to it, i am going to be sensitive enough not to use douchey words by default. i'm on the side of whatever legislation or activism puts an end to racial discrimination.

but i am not going to live in a permanent state of self hatred and guilt about it. because - sometimes the oppressed races are in the wrong. not because of their skin colour, but because they or other people can use anti racism to frame certain things in ways that play off our natural revulsion at racism. also because they're human and can be just in the wrong like all other humans can.

also, i am not going to blindly accept that everything presented to me as racist is necessarily so. i'm always going to try and look at what the real motivating factors are - which is almost always money.

the way you frame it there's an evil half invisible force of (white) oppressors who somehow always makes decisions based on race, not economics or self interest or practicality.

in every case where it IS down to race - then im with you

but i dont see me being white as a problem. you do, but you dont expect blacks to see their blackness as a problem.

i dont necessarily believe being "white" means much more than a certain line of ancestry and a certain pigmentation of skin. it doesnt mean im born in sin - sorry - racism.

[dead_battery]

and symbol is right that resentment is toxic and addictive.

you cant be blind to it but you have to be able to face it with a certain serenity.

people LOVE victimhood and love the easy moralism of defending the victim. but you can't just wallow in it forever.

a lot of white people would prefer if blacks were eternal victims, cos then they'd never have to actually treat them as equals.

[Rob Instigator]

as long as 98% of every character in Hollywood movies and television shows are cracka-ass white, everything is cool right?

Friends was set in NYC and the closest they got to a non-whitey was when Ross almost married that Asian paleontologist.

Seinfeld did the same thing, where nearly everyone they interact with is white, even though they tried to make a joke about it when Costanza tried hard to prove he had a black friend.

Top shows lately,

Breaking Bad - mostly white folks in a largely hispanic state, where blacks and hispanics are shown just as background color to the seedy parts the main characters visit.

Mad Men - Set in NYC in the 60's, a time when tons of blacks and puerto Ricans and Asians were moving to NYC, and they have one black semi-regular character that is used as a prop whenever they want to say something "deep" about black folks, or when a racist character wishes to feel good about themselves by hugging the black character.

Game of Thrones - Even in fantasy realms (hey, especially in fantasy realms. Tolkien was a racist BITCH), nearly everyone of importance is white, and the dark people are led by a whiter than white lady who is not one of them, and the white lady frees all the black and brown slaves.

It is not about being white or being black or brown. "Race" is a fully made-up term that applies only vaguely to any individual human. "Race" has historically been an attempt by white people to designate whiteness at the top of creation while the other "races" are naturally less divine.

If you think that shit is still not around and still not believed by the powerful and mighty, then you have been fooled quite well.