[demonrail666]

Yeah. I really didn't expect the verdict to be as damning as it was. Everyone knew the police were guilty but I just thought the enquiry would simply target a few scapegoats and be done with it. And I'm glad it was ordinary football fans who fought for it, peacefully, intelligently and with far more dignity than the authorities ever credited them with. Absolutely amazing outcome.

 

[the ikara cult]

I cant believe this hasnt been the consensus the whole time, the claims of the victums were hardly extraordinary - My loved ones were not drunk or violent - and they were supported by many people with serious legal backgrounds.

Every time this cuntsponge has been on Question Time ive wanted to revoke the license fee. Hopefully this is the end of his disgraceful career

 

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by the ikara cult

Suchy i would love to have a beer and an arguement with you in the real world, but at some point we have to transcend our bitterness and cynicism to vote in a practical world.

Why? Working within the community at after-school programs, with gang-intervention programs, the library, half-way houses, shelters, prisons, community awareness programs, civic meetings, NGOs, churches, universities, environmental and conservation groups, etc etc not enough for y'all? How is it more appropriate to work with political campaigns and vote than to actually work with the community? Voting is a sham, plain and simple and that is my premise. If folks ACTUALLY want to do something in their communities, there are plenty of ways do such, and working with political parties and political campaigns seems to me to have the least efficacy.

[the ikara cult]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

Why? Working within the community at after-school programs, with gang-intervention programs, the library, half-way houses, shelters, prisons, community awareness programs, civic meetings, NGOs, churches, universities, environmental and conservation groups, etc etc not enough for y'all? How is it more appropriate to work with political campaigns and vote than to actually work with the community? Voting is a sham, plain and simple and that is my premise. If folks ACTUALLY want to do something in their communities, there are plenty of ways do such, and working with political parties and political campaigns seems to me to have the least efficacy.

Im not saying you are cynical in your local community, you are too cynical about the work people do in other countries, as i made clear in my last post. Ive never tried to inject myself into the things youve posted about the police messing you about, i respect the fact you probably know more about your situation than me

But when it comes to international politics, you dont have much of value to add

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

Why? Working within the community at after-school programs, with gang-intervention programs, the library, half-way houses, shelters, prisons, community awareness programs, civic meetings, NGOs, churches, universities, environmental and conservation groups, etc etc not enough for y'all?

Of course it's plenty but which one have you actually done? Are you saying you've worked in all of them? Or are these just "good ideas"?

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

How is it more appropriate to work with political campaigns and vote than to actually work with the community?

it's not an either/or thing, they operate at different levels

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

Voting is a sham, plain and simple and that is my premise.

so they don't vote in NGOs, civic metings, churches, conservation groups, etc? how do these groups make decisions?

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

If folks ACTUALLY want to do something in their communities, there are plenty of ways do such, and working with political parties and political campaigns seems to me to have the least efficacy.

even if you are only concerned with local politics, the political parties can create either a friendly or hostile environment for all of the local institutions you mentioned above. they can provide funding or withdraw it.

do you think the environment in halfway houses or prison programs change when you have shit like supermax prisons? do you think addicts should be lumped with violent criminals or sent to drug courts? and how does that affect the impacted communities?

Do you think the work of environmental groups is affected when pollution is encouraged by "pro-business" administrations?

Don't you realize that many of these people and groups are actually the "base" of these bigger parties?

Seriously man, there is a bigger picture at the national and international level and that can't fit our dreams 100%, but sometimes you have to take 60/40 over 40/60, yeah?

However, that happens at the local community level: the union organizers who decide to take a stance on foreign policy and splinter their membership. the health clinic that gets money for showing videos from CNN and pharmaceutical ads in the waiting room. the university that experiments with animals (ask PETA what they think about it). the NGO that misappropriates funds. the environmental group that misrepresents or outright falsifies data.

there is no purity at any level when you actually try to get things done in this planet. none. ideals belong in the fucking heavens of thought and imagination, and they remain a point in the compass, not an achievable destination. compromise is the rule of planet earth once you get more that 1 person involved. if you want to get things done you can't be all pure and holy-- besides, there will always be haters who disapprove no matter how hard you try-- just make sure you're one of the doers not one of the haters.

LAWS AND SAUSAGES

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by the ikara cult

Im not saying you are cynical in your local community, you are too cynical about the work people do in other countries, as i made clear in my last post. Ive never tried to inject myself into the things youve posted about the police messing you about, i respect the fact you probably know more about your situation than me

But when it comes to international politics, you dont have much of value to add

and what exactly has the Democratic Party added of value to the international community? I would say not much more or less than President Bush, and no more or less than Mitt Romney would do. Our President is the most charismatic internationally, but his actual policies and actions have been as criminal and reprehensible internationally as any other president in any history. Stop and reflect on that for a second and realize the depth of what I am trying to say, but understand that internationally is where I am MOST critical of the American political system

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

it's not an either/or thing, they operate at different levels

Yes it is, one level is in reality, and the other operates at the realm of our collective political imagination. Voting is the symptom of the disconnect between the two.

so they don't vote in NGOs, civic metings, churches, conservation groups, etc? how do these groups make decisions?

They do indeed, perhaps you missed my point. Its not exactly democratic principles that I am challenging, its the current national level political machinery operating in the United States. I am essentially promoting the "boycott" vote, and not giving into the fear-mongering of either party of "support me or its you're fault."

even if you are only concerned with local politics, the political parties can create either a friendly or hostile environment for all of the local institutions you mentioned above. they can provide funding or withdraw it.

do you think the environment in halfway houses or prison programs change when you have shit like supermax prisons? do you think addicts should be lumped with violent criminals or sent to drug courts? and how does that affect the impacted communities?


Do you think the work of environmental groups is affected when pollution is encouraged by "pro-business" administrations?

Don't you realize that many of these people and groups are actually the "base" of these bigger parties?

You are right, but simply voting for or participating with the campaign of one political party or another is not going to dictate that. Rather, if you work on the street, grass-roots level in our communities you will indeed be interacting daily with the government. The difference is you won't necessarily be in bed with the parties, and further, you will be operating more at an equal playing field as equals rather than mutual sycophants.

Seriously man, there is a bigger picture at the national and international level and that can't fit our dreams 100%, but sometimes you have to take 60/40 over 40/60, yeah?

Its not about our fucking dreams, its about the nightmare which is many people's reality. If our political machinery is the base and support of police brutality, in systemic economic equality, of structural racism, of the death, murder and insane mayhem of war in several countries simultaneously while funding several others.. Is that really what you want to vote for and support? It is much more effective to work directly with the communities and organizations which operate on the ground.

I am sorry it I am a bit more disillusioned than y'all, but inevitably we all see the Light like Paul did and get knocked of the fanciful high-hopes high horse of patriotic wishful thinking. EVERY country, EVERY nation, EVERY community has to inevitably deal with the negatives they reap along side the positives. I am not pretending these are not our mutual realities, I would argue all the more that our current political machinery IS that problem particularly because it scape-goats the blame which is its own. If you want to support Mr. Obama that is fine, but please ask him why he keeps killing people in Yemen and Pakistan and Somalia and Mexico and Los Angeles? Is that what we voted for? You can ask Mitt the same thing

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by the ikara cult

I cant believe this hasnt been the consensus the whole time

The image of football fans in the 80s was terrible (Hillsborough wasn't that long after Heysel) so I'm sure large sections of the general public would've instinctively taken the side of the police against people they regularly saw described in the media (by the likes of McKenzie) as 'animals', etc. I can only compare it to the likely public response now to something like that happening at a nightclub full of chavs. The police would say they were on drugs and violent and I suspect the public would believe every word, regardless of the evidence. And while I don't think it's as significant a factor, I do know that some people couldn't stop themselves from reading events through the distorting lens of football and local rivalries.

[Pookie]

For what it's worth I agree with practically everything Suchfriends... has said.

I had written a lengthy paragraph saying why but it added nothing to what he's said so far and it was badly written anyway.

[evollove]

I am as horrified by Obama's foreign policy as much as anyone, and I can't figure out why he's such a dick. I shift between:

1- He was always a hawkish dick, and we if had paid more attention in 2008 we would've realized it

2- The office corrupts. Lord knows what a head-fuck it must be to be POTUS.

3- There are things we don't know--either because they are top secret or under-reported or I have no idea where to research. If I had all the facts--who knows?--I might agree Obama has made the safest, smartest, most humane decisions when it comes to extraordinary rendition, drone attacks, etc.

[Pookie]

Originally Posted by evollove

I am as horrified by Obama's foreign policy as much as anyone, and I can't figure out why he's such a dick. I shift between:

1- He was always a hawkish dick, and we if had paid more attention in 2008 we would've realized it

Read this (or Paul Street's articles on ZNet):

 

"That book (Barack Obama and the Future of American Politics – June 2008) predicted that an Obama presidency would disappoint those who naively bought into the notion that his election heralded progressive change. I had no progressive expectations and thus was not disappointed. My prediction was based on my understanding of Obama’s centrist, neoliberal, business- and empire-friendly record in the Illinois legislature and the U.S. Senate and on the actual content of his presidential campaign."

[evollove]

^

Started skimming. Got depressed.

But then I realized: the progressive Obama we saw in 2008 candidacy WON, which means there's a thirst for this sort of leader.

So I'm a little optimistic for the future. 2016 should be a blast.

[Pookie]

Originally Posted by evollove

But then I realized: the progressive Obama we saw in 2008 candidacy WON, which means there's a thirst for this sort of leader.

You saw a progressive Obama because you wanted to see a progressive Obama. His biggest skill is that he appeared all things to all people.

[evollove]

Right. I got scammed, or maybe scammed myself.

But what I'm saying is: in, say, 2007 I would've thought a progressive candidate would have no chance of winning.

Now I think a real progressive (not Obama) could come along and gain a lot more support than I would've thought possible five years ago.

Even if Obama isn't a progressive, he's made life easier for a future progressive candidate. I think.

[h8kurdt]

Obama is hardly the dick you're making him out to be. Honestly I do think he would like things to be better and he does try. But he's caught between a rock and a hard place. He's running a country that is generally more conservative than most 1st world countries, he's got an opposing party that bark down everything he tries to do. He can't win no matter what he does. Either not liberal enough for the lefites, not right wing enough for the righties. You're forgetting what he's done for the better.

http://whatthefuckhasobamadonesofar.com/

And his foreign polices are in no way as bad as the Republicans has been or will be.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by h8kurdt

Obama is hardly the dick you're making him out to be. Honestly I do think he would like things to be better and he does try. But he's caught between a rock and a hard place. He's running a country that is generally more conservative than most 1st world countries, he's got an opposing party that bark down everything he tries to do. He can't win no matter what he does. Either not liberal enough for the lefites, not right wing enough for the righties. You're forgetting what he's done for the better.

http://whatthefuckhasobamadonesofar.com/

And his foreign polices are in no way as bad as the Republicans has been or will be.

Folks getting killed by various US military agencies across the planet just might disagree highly with you

In regards to Republican vs Democrat, when you do the analysis, it turns out the foreign policy of both parties over the past 15 years has been IDENTICAL including an emphasis on exploitative free-trade agreements, badgering through foreign aid contracts, and when all that fails outright displays of hard power by killing and maiming all kinds of people from all kinds of places

[h8kurdt]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

Folks getting killed by various US military agencies across the planet just might disagree highly with you

In regards to Republican vs Democrat, when you do the analysis, it turns out the foreign policy of both parties over the past 15 years has been IDENTICAL including an emphasis on exploitative free-trade agreements, badgering through foreign aid contracts, and when all that fails outright displays of hard power by killing and maiming all kinds of people from all kinds of places

There was never any major wars under Bill Clinton was there? There were the stupid aerial bombings (Sudan, and Kosovo with NATO) but definitely no major land wars on the scale of both Bushs.

[floatingslowly]

ITT: white people

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by h8kurdt

There was never any major wars under Bill Clinton was there? There were the stupid aerial bombings (Sudan, and Kosovo with NATO) but definitely no major land wars on the scale of both Bushs.

No, Clinton's wars were all in secret, but what exactly do you think provoked the Bush era in the first place? Did y'all forget about places like Haiti, Columbia, or Somalia? The No-Fly-Zone over Iraq was enforced until 2000 including hundreds of sorties being dropped during that time. Lets not forget about Liberia, the Congo, Central African Republic, Cambodia, Kenya and Tanzania, Macedonia (twice), Bosnia (three times), Serbia (twice), All places where thousands of US boots were on the ground under the Clinton administration.. Further, Clinton was the master of the international free-trade agreements which birthed the Walmart effect. Clinton is not a Saint, rather, like Mr. Obama he is just a bit more persuasive than the Republicans, but they are all in the same bed together.

[!@#$%!]

look here you fucking absolutist dolts, and tell me if it doesn't make a difference to have a rational person or a religious nutcase in charge, even if the rational person isn't your emperor-messiah:

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-dru...nd-george-bush

yes, obama keeps killing people with drones, ran into a legal mess trying to close guantanamo, hasn't finished the war in afghanistan, authorized domestic espionage, but he also pulled out of iraq, and more importantly he's not trying to fulfill idiotic prophecies by religiously-addled lunatics from 2000 years ago.

for all the shit that people talk about obama not being "progressive' enough there are millions of wingnuts equally crying that he's not doing enough to support israel, that he needs to start a war with iran, that he should have escalated with russia over georgia, that he's an agent of Kenyan anticolonialism, etc.

you can't fucking please everybody, and i'm not saying that i'm 100% pleased with obama, but shit, the "what's the alternative" question isn't just rethorical, it's a real life-and-death question when it comes to a lot of issue-- even if it's not EVERY FUCKING ISSUE.

if you want someone like president willard to take over, then don't vote for his oponent if that makes you feel clever or morally superior, but don't come crying about it when he takes over and begins another shitstorm-- we haven't even finished cleaning up the crap from the last one, either in foreign policy or in the economy, and the last thing we need is more tax cuts for millionaires and more military spending, but you say it's all a mirage and it makes no difference. very well you deluded fucks.

just take a look at this motherfucker:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/13/opinio...ack/index.html
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Mid...#axzz26ThHxHU2

you fucking imbeciles

obama is far from perfect but at least he believes in science-- you don't