[Savage Clone]

Churches can adhere to whatever crazy crap they want, like a magic man in the sky who knows when you're masturbating, for instance. The LEGAL aspects and associated spousal rights are all people are after here.

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by MellySingsDoom

You, sir, are a reactionary moron. You betray your true beliefs in your pseudo-even handed prose, but in fact it's obvious you have a problem with gay marriage., and frankly I feel you have a problem with the whole idea of homosexuality. So there.

I have to say that I think Steve has a perfectly valid point, and if that point disguises some underlying homophobia, I'm not sure I see it. If the church wishes to prohibit same sex marriage being enacted in its name, then that is its right. If it begins to interfere with government legislation that is when it oversteps its bounderies and is a whole other matter. To cast the church's opposition to same sex marriage as 'hate speech' sets a worrying precedent for any type of freedom of expression. I'm not a believer in the beliefs of the church so I'm not a member. However, I don't expect it to have to change those views to accomodate me, and equally i don't expect to have to change mine to accomodate it. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

[MellySingsDoom]

^^^dr666 - you,know, I'm really going to have to stop posting after I come back from the pub. I cannae disagree with ye at all. Oh sod it, I should get some sleep. Goodnight, y'all.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by steve newman

wrong with what? of course there are pro gay churches. there are churches with no religion at all. the statement simply says laws could be enacted to force churches to comply. some will, some won't. i'd just like to see what the reaction would be if they said mosques and synagogues had to comply as well. its just a theory worth a little thought.

I. Definition.
The Sacrament of matrimony is the holy service through which the bridegroom and the bride are united together and given the divine grace, which sanctifies their matrimonial union, makes it perfect and spiritual like the unity of Christ and the church.
This sacrament is of a very great importance, in it not only the lives of two persons, but the home; the state, the Church and the kingdom of God are deeply involved. It is not a sacrament to be regarded lightly or performed thoughtlessly and in discriminately.

II. Institution of the Sacrament
(1) There is no doubt that matrimony was instituted by God Himself at the creation of the world. “ God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He them; male and female created He them, and God said to them. Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.” (Genesis 1: 27, 28)
When speaking of the creation of Eve, the Bible reports that God brought her unto the man. (Gen. 2: 22)

(2) In the New Testament Christ confirmed this sacrament:
1. By attending the marriage feast at Cana of Galilee (John 2)

2. By His reaching. When answering the questions of the Pharisees who came unto Him. Tempting Him, and saying unto Him “Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?” His answer was “Have ye not read, that He which made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said. For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife and thay twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, lt not man put asunder.” (Matt. 19: 4-6)

3, some church fathers were of the opinion that Christ instituted this sacrament in the 40 days during which He used to appear to His disciples, after His resurrection and speak of the things pertaining to the Kingdom of God (Acts 1: 3)

III. Ends of Marriage
There are three ends of marriage.
(1) Preservation and growth of mankind. “male and female He created them. And God blessed them, and God said to them, be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.” (Gen. 1: 27,28)
The growth of mankind tends of course to the growth of the church.

(2) Mutual help between husband and wife. “And the Lord said, it is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him: (Gen. 2: 18)

(3) After the fall of man and the entering of sin to the world there arose another end. I.e. that marriage might help to keep man and woman from the temptation of carnal lusts, “Now concerning the things whereof you wrote unto me: it is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. I say therefore to the unmarried and windows, it is good for them if they abide even as I. But if they cannot, let them marry, for it is better to marry an to burn.” (1 Cor. 7:1-9)

IV. The Outward Sign.
There are three outward signs in this sacrament:
(1) The declaration of the bridegroom and the bride in front of the church that they wish- by their own free will-to be married to each other, and that each will be loyal to the other till the end of life.

(2) The matrimonial service which the priest performs, and through which he asks for the divine grace for the bridegroom and the bride.

(3) The oil with which the bridegroom and the bride are anointed at the time of matrimonial service.

V. The Invisible Grace.
The function of this sacrament is:
(1) To sanctify the matrimonial union and make it a spiritual one.
“Matrimony is honorable in all, and the bed undefiled.” (Heb. 13: 4) “For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: that everyone …. You should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honor.” (1 Thess. 4: 3,4)

(2) To help the husband and wife to keep themselves united together and unseparated, just as they unity of Christ with the church is everlasting. “What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.” (Matt. 19: 6)

(3) To keep the husband and wife loyal and faithful to each other.

VI. Obligations of the Husband & Wife
(1) Before marriage
1. Both should be Christians, because Christ’s grace cannot be given to non-Christians, whether in this sacrament or other sacraments.

2. Both should belong to the Orthodox Church. If any of them does not, he or she should first join that church.

3. They should not be connected together with a carnal or spiritual affinity which prevents their marriage.

4. Each should be willing to get married with the other. The desire of parents is not sufficient. The priest should ask each of them privately and openly whether he or she agrees to be married to the other.

(2) At Marriage:-
Since matrimony is one of the church sacraments, marriage should be through the church. It is the duty of the priests to teach their congregation that every marriage should be in the church, and that the church does no allow any marriage performed outside it.

(3) After Marriage:-
1. The husband should have only one wife, and the wife should have only one husband. “And He answered and said unto them, ,have ye not read, that He which made them at the beginning made them male and female and said. For this cause shall a man leave father and mother and shall cleave to his wife; and the twain shall be one flesh.” (Matt. 19:4, 5)

2. If either of them dies, the other can marry. “The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband lives, but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.” (1 Cor. 7:39)

3. They can never separate but for one reason, i.e. fornication. “They are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together let no man put asunder whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, commits adultery; and whose married her which is put away doth commit adultery.” (Matt. 19: 6,9)
Therefore none is allowed to leave his wife for any other reason.

VII. Who has the Right to Celebrate the Sacrament.
This right is given to priests. Bishops can also celebrate the sacrament.


That is a whole shitload of religious rhetoric and theology regarding church marriage, it can't be forced from the outside. there are not laws regarding communion or baptism are they? if your church does not want to perform your marriage, isn't it time to look for another church? This is not the 14th century, the Church does not dictate the law in the United States. I think it is a step in the wrong direction entirely to ask the law to dictate the Church. in regards to sex abuse scandals, yes, in regads to dogma/doctrine/theology/religious services no. If the Church is hurting some one physically yes, if the Church is hurting someone's feelings no. Church is voluntary remember?

[pokkeherrie]

 

[steve newman]

Originally Posted by MellySingsDoom

You, sir, are a reactionary moron. You betray your true beliefs in your pseudo-even handed prose, but in fact it's obvious you have a problem with gay marriage., and frankly I feel you have a problem with the whole idea of homosexuality. So there.

yay! you cracked the nutshell! for your prize, you get a tall glass of shut the fuck up juice! unfortunately, my gay ex-roommate of 3 years, gay friends, gay bandmembers, and gay co-workers would all disagree. teh luvz da gheys!

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by steve newman

yay! you cracked the nutshell! for your prize, you get a tall glass of shut the fuck up juice! unfortunately, my gay ex-roommate of 3 years, gay friends, gay bandmembers, and gay co-workers would all disagree. teh luvz da gheys!

 

[steve newman]

i thought i told you. NO WIRE HANGERS!!!

[MellySingsDoom]

Originally Posted by steve newman

yay! you cracked the nutshell! for your prize, you get a tall glass of shut the fuck up juice! unfortunately, my gay ex-roommate of 3 years, gay friends, gay bandmembers, and gay co-workers would all disagree. teh luvz da gheys!

Oops, I forgot to retract wot I said to you too. Sorry, old chap.

Can I have my shut-the-fuck-up-juice with a big slice of humble pie? No? Fuck it, just gimme the juice then.