[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by kinn

no its not.

people who are actually poor cant afford university without state assistance. asking them to work 2 jobs to pay for it themselves makes them stressed, tired, too busy too study and gives them a worse education. we all do worse when that happens as a society. we are underqualified, stupider, pitted against each other with less hope of progress. the class divide gets bigger. those kids have to work even more for even less so their kids can have even less of a hope of being able to afford university. families get stuck in poverty for generations.

meanwhile the countries that have the sense to subsidize their education start to economically out compete us. they become more prosperous and intelligent societies.

this has been proved over and over again.

without state subsidies of education NOONE can afford it except the very rich. the institutions become elitist, the class divide widens.

any working class person convinced their interests lie in the kind of capitalist realism displayed by you are victims of a lack of education and the misguided belief that they of all people aren't the ones completely fucked over in the name of free market education.

People who are middle class often times can't afford to attend a university without state assistance, either. That part of your argument is invalid. Middle class people are often stressed and tired for the same exact reasons.

As far as what the rest of what you said goes....

I think an intelligent society begins with an intelligent K-12. Not teaching total bullshit and attempting to teach kids to be interested in thinking for themselves. Maybe if this were to happen, we wouldn't live with folks that honestly believe a man named Jonas lived in the belly of a whale.

Some want to say America is stupid...and we seem to slowly be becoming as such....but "stupid" isn't what got us where we currently are....no matter which way ya opt to look at it and whatever it is becoming.

As far as schools being "free" is concerned....I've indirectly mentioned more than twice that I may be a bit off target, possibly. But even this too (on my end) is invalid because anyone that wants to go to school can. To me, generations of poverty at this day in age is a choice. + I am one of those that refuses to believe (because it doesn't) that true poverty exists all that much in America. I say this because it's rare anyone starves to death in America.

[kinn]

How is my any part of my argument invalid?

You just said that because middle class people often can't afford uni either that means my argument is invalid.

This makes absolutely no sense.

Teaching total bullshit? Why did you even say that? The point of school is so you are not taught total bullshit. Thats why we need education. That's why we need more education, to improve the standard of thought, and improve the standard of teaching.

Also. NOT anyone who wants to go to school can. This is what we have been talking about the whole time. Many people can't go because they can't afford. They get free education up to a certain point yes. But the qualifications you get with that education is very rarely enough to get you into a high paid job or have a chance at being in the middle class by the time you are 30.

Not many people starve to death in America yes. But millions die early due to poor nutrition because of their poverty. Millions of lives are lived below the potential they could have been lived at. Education is a way to ameliorate the problems of poverty and one of the best ways to give people a chance to actually be able to make a decent standard of living in the future. Millions of people also don't go on to do amazing and important things economically or socially because they haven't had a good education, comforts in life and the opportunity to develop their minds instead of having to use them solely to survive from mouth to mouth.

Without education subsidies the working class/lower middle class cannot afford a post high school education. This means they go on to make less money, have less skills and make less innovations and general progress. This decreases wealth for the WHOLE of the society. Not just them.

The problem is nothing to do with little kids believing bible stories are real. If they were secular atheists this wouldn't somehow solve all your problems.

As for America being stupid, well of course that's the problem. There comes a point in the life of any civilisation when you hit a slump in economic growth/productivity. There is less money, less food, and if this isn't corrected somehow it causes a slump in national IQ average and then you are on a downward spiral towards hell that you can't really pull out of. By the end of it the civilisation is over and the remaining few are either dying or off being absorbed into some other nation.

It's really not hard to understand. The worse food you feed a baby, the worse its brain develops as it grows. The poorer you are the less likely you are to be able to afford better food for your kids. The more you educate a child the smarter and more competent they will grow up to be. The more skills they will have, the more money they will make. The same applies to entire nations. Without education in peoples lives they turn savage pretty quickly. Education socialises and encourages cooperation and general well being. You cannot have a healthy society that cuts off its young at age 16 with only the qualifications to work menial jobs unless they are rich. If only the rich get higher education then you get nepotism.

Go look at the rank of all nations and see the correlation between wealth and IQ. Notice which countries are at the top and which are at the bottom. Now those nations didn't just get to were they are because of the diet that was available in the region were they live. They got their because of cooperative projects to create a social body. Not every man for himself. Education is what did this. You need to educate EVERYONE. Not just those that can afford it.

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by kinn

How is my any part of my argument invalid?

You just said that because middle class people often can't afford uni either that means my argument is invalid.

This makes absolutely no sense.

Teaching total bullshit? Why did you even say that? The point of school is so you are not taught total bullshit. Thats why we need education. That's why we need more education, to improve the standard of thought, and improve the standard of teaching.

Also. NOT anyone who wants to go to school can. This is what we have been talking about the whole time. Many people can't go because they can't afford. They get free education up to a certain point yes. But the qualifications you get with that education is very rarely enough to get you into a high paid job or have a chance at being in the middle class by the time you are 30.

Not many people starve to death in America yes. But millions die early due to poor nutrition because of their poverty. Millions of lives are lived below the potential they could have been lived at. Education is a way to ameliorate the problems of poverty and one of the best ways to give people a chance to actually be able to make a decent standard of living in the future. Millions of people also don't go on to do amazing and important things economically or socially because they haven't had a good education, comforts in life and the opportunity to develop their minds instead of having to use them solely to survive from mouth to mouth.

Without education subsidies the working class/lower middle class cannot afford a post high school education. This means they go on to make less money, have less skills and make less innovations and general progress. This decreases wealth for the WHOLE of the society. Not just them.

Because YOU, my friend were attempting to state that a difference between poor and middle class is a struggle when it comes to furthering one's education. + the examples you've used apply to not one, but both class systems, hence...argument invalid (at least that part....I thought the rest of your debate held some water)....and yes, I'm not totally ignorant and do realize cultural upbringing can have an effect on things....but this is another debate and doesn't nec. have to apply.

So you are saying universities opt to teach total truth, while K-12 doesn't? Some may....but this still doesn't take away from Asbury College in Kentucky, and establishments of the like. If k-12 was restructured, if what was taught (and how it is taught) was restructured...things would be far different. If as many people were as interested in challenging that that are challenging "free school" (mind you, K-12 is free), and chose to create a better K-12, we might not even be having this debate.

Think of what is generally taught in grades K-12, and then consider a few others courses/changes that could be added to that curriculum...and at least ask yourself if it might possibly make a difference....This is in response to the "stupid society" you were talking about.

There are plenty that can't go because they can't afford it, true...there are also plenty that didn't apply themselves early enough in the game as well. You decide to fuck off in HS...get terrible grades, maybe even drop out...well, does this sound like someone you'd pull money out of your own wallet to help go to college. If so, great...most wouldn't be interested. Most that make the grades, CAN get in (taken they want to)...of course this means debt, but it means debt to anyone that attends (a fact suchfriends made clear earlier, when arguing as to why schools should be free...and good points he did make)...It's not hard to get into a university (even if it might not be one of yr choice) even if you are poor....this might entail moving and borrowing so much money that it will take ya 50 years to pay it back...but POOR PEOPLE CAN AND DO GET INTO COLLEGE....look up Ft. Valley State University....of course, it's a shit school in a shit town, but it is a university none-the-less. I'm sure they have at least some intelligent professors and a fantastic library...I GOT IN ON A MINORITY SCHOLARSHIP...because a), my mom was basically poor (I was too at the time), and b) I'M WHITE. I was accepted and enrolled, but backed out after not wanting to wait 4 hours to sign up for my classes. At the time it boiled down to laziness on my end, sure, but today it still remains a decision I do not regret. Money + time would have been wasted on a meaningless art degree at least partially paid for by (like myself...) hard working people that don't + will never even know my name. I'm sure it wouldn't make any of them happy knowing some asshole with an art degree paid for by their hard-earned dollar is working at some 7-11 or the equivalent (just an example, I don't work for 7-11 but it's a well established fact that an art degree doesn't do much for most in the way of finding a good job)....

What I've said above, is where I'm split on this issue. I don't mind knowing my tax dollars might be paying for someone to go to school that may one day give me a heart transplant....but I damned sure don't like the idea of paying for someone to get a (other than personal interest....) degree in something that doesn't make my or anyone else's life any better. You want a degree in art or philosophy, you pay for it or better yet study on yr own time.

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to kinn again.



brother i like you, but that is some serious foot in mouth, talking out of ass bullshit. when I was trying to get into UCLA, i was sincerely contemplating straight robbing some of the wealthier students there, they couldn't even comprehend what I mean when I say "paid cash all ones"

working class is a myth, and a fleeting illusion in america, it is some tricky Dick Nixon mirage, rhetoric to pit the slightly less poor folks with the slightly not rich folks. there is only poor and rich in america, period. if you are not poor, then you just can't relate, and that's fine, but its better to take a spirit of humility rather than holier than thou self righteousness..

Working class (which in most cases just boils down to a mentality some middle class people have these days) tend to not mind working their asses off to get what they want. They expect the same of others, regardless of what class system they may be. Working class stems from (and this doesn't mean "unintelligent", as most assholes tend to think) generally "uneducated" folks that manage to make a living via whatever their 9-5 might be, and being proud of the fact. No one in my family (and there are a few that can afford it) buys anyone else a Lexus. That's working class.

I want a new guitar, there's no one to buy it for me (sans MAYBE Christmas). I need a new car, no one else is purchasing me one (ever!)....I've gotta go out and get it myself. Just like my mom, just like my parents, just like my grandparents. Not all of us have been "poor", but everyone of us have been working class. What we own, what we achieve, in my family has always boiled down to what the individual was willing to do for his/herself. For some that has meant saving and starting their own profitable businesses, for others it's meant working two jobs, there's a few that have chosen to be complete pieces of shit and do nothing. Only two family members I know of have degrees (paid for by themselves), none of us take advantage of any sort of government aid. In situations of struggle, we work two jobs. Welfare = embarrassment. We take pride in what we are able to achieve. I appreciate my guitar and truck because it wasn't given to me....I'm not so sure I'd feel the same way about an education someone else paid for (I personally would....but only because, as a working class individual, I realize someone somewhere did in fact work their ass off). Do I think everyone would feel this way? No! Most feel as if some things are owed to them, and that the time of others should be given to them as a right. These are the same people I feel as if, in a more primitive society, would think they were owed free food and shelter.

This, is where my mentality on this whole thread comes from. Is it stupid? That's a matter of opinion.

Who pays teachers at a free school?
Who buys all the paper and textbooks?
Who pays for the land and all the workers and materials that go into the building?


Sounds free to me....

Unless we were to live in a anarchistic society (which most here probably wouldn't realize would be my preference) it only makes sense to pay for the things we want. Educating younger people to think for themselves and respect hard work, in my mind, is the key....teaching evolution and labeling god "a theory" in schools in my mind is the key.....free shit is not the key to a more intelligent society. Most, despite popular belief, are going to waste their time studying when they could be having fun. I say this because most I know in school are wasting their time...partying when then should be studying. If school was free....who the fuck would actually want to attend when they think "oh, I can do whatever I want now and go to school tomorrow"?

In other words, I don't know many people that would want to spend time on subjects they might not be interested in today, when they can always worry about it tomorrow.

Sounds free to me.

[kinn]

Firstly the fact that both middle class and working class people struggle to pay for uni is THE ENTIRE POINT. because they can't afford it. so no, it does not in any way invalidate my argument. we are talking about not being able to afford university, because someone is middle class or working class does not somehow trump the fact they can't afford it.

Secondly, no, I am NOT saying universities teach "total truth" which is a ridiculous concept. I never said that, or anything resembling that. And it cannot be sensibly inferred from what I did say.

Now yes, what you call k-12 and what I call primary and secondary needs to be BETTER. of course. who doesn't agree with that?

Again, as I've said before, this is NOT enough because it doesn't give you the qualifications you need to get into high paying jobs. It's the qualifications and experience that get you into those higher paying jobs. You don't get them if you only have a high school education. No matter how good this education might be it does not give you the qualifications to get into any job apart from basic menial labour.

As for the rest, you are just rambling about how you fucked up your own chance at an education and this I do not care about. Maybe try focusing on educating yourself instead of wishing you could dictate who and what your tax is being spent on. Don't feel good about what it gets spent on? GET AN EDUCATION SO YOU CAN HAVE THE QUALIFICATIONS AND KNOWLEDGE TO GET A JOB THAT CAN ALLOW YOU TO REFORM THE TAX SYSTEM. That's a better option for you and every other person out there who stand together in negative solidarity demanding everyone be fairly screwed out of any release from the HARD WORK (tm) that you apparently think poor people have a choice to avoid.

Also EDUCATING PEOPLE WHO COULDN'T AFFORD IT OTHERWISE LETS THEM GET BETTER JOBS AND THUS EARN MORE MONEY IN THE FUTURE AND THUS PAY MORE TAX. I put that in capitals because I don't think you understand it

And yes, poor people DO get into uni. But not enough of them. There needs to be more. And they need to be able to do it without getting into debt for their whole lives.

Now saying that you can't accept people getting degrees in things that don't benefit you or other people and then saying that this does not include art or philosophy is ridiculous. Deciding to only award degrees for things that are practical or definitively economically viable is highly unwise. I don't care if you don't "like it", but some kid who has grown up poor his whole life but has a passion for art DOES deserve to get a college education in art on your tax dollar. It may be the thing that saves him from a wasted life or life in a factory. It may be the best experience of his life. It will probably show him an entirely different world and new people. Free philosophy education for the working class breeds intellectuals, writers and thinkers in their ranks. They do better, we all do better. Pricing it out of their range screws us ALL over.

As for your second post of self righteous folksy "look at me I'm authentically proletarian", you aren't making any point there at all. Save for the basic fact that people in your family used the money they got from their work to buy the things they wanted. Actually swa, we all do this, and it does not make you somehow special.

Now maybe your entire working class family might want to think about the fact that if there was more working class people with any position of influence they could change the tax system to tax the rich MORE and tax the working class LESS. So then you wouldn't have to suffer the injustice of your tax being used to pay teachers.

No, "not buying a lexus" isn't working class. That's fucking laughable. I cannot think of any working class person besides an utter fucking idiot who would say that.

If you are poor and you can't afford to buy a lexus not being able to buy one doesn't make you working class. what the fuck are you talking about? If someone has enough money to be able to afford to throw it all away, basically waste it they aren't really working class. Maybe they used to be, maybe they still work, wasting money on extravagant things you can't afford is what any sane person avoids. This does not make you special.

You are trying to make this entire argument about class which is a redundant point. Obviously there are some working class people and middle class people who can afford college educations. MOST CANT. thats the entire point.

[ann ashtray]

Suchfriends mentioned Germany and Sweden and all the benefits of their "free schools" earlier...

Perhaps this is why Ford currently owns Volvo.

[kinn]

No. Actually there is hard data to prove that states with generous welfare spending do not sacrifice economic productivity. If anything they increase it if managed properly. Want to have them managed properly? Then try EDUCATING people from all social classes, include the ones who couldn't afford it otherwise.

Maybe if you had been actually educated you wouldn't think one example of a corporate merger can be used to dismiss the argument for subsidized education.

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by kinn

Firstly the fact that both middle class and working class people struggle to pay for uni is THE ENTIRE POINT. because they can't afford it. so no, it does not in any way invalidate my argument. we are talking about not being able to afford university, because someone is middle class or working class does not somehow trump the fact they can't afford it.

Secondly, no, I am NOT saying universities teach "total truth" which is a ridiculous concept. I never said that, or anything resembling that. And it cannot be sensibly inferred from what I did say.

Now yes, what you call k-12 and what I call primary and secondary needs to be BETTER. of course. who doesn't agree with that?

Again, as I've said before, this is NOT enough because it doesn't give you the qualifications you need to get into high paying jobs. It's the qualifications and experience that get you into those higher paying jobs. You don't get them if you only have a high school education. No matter how good this education might be it does not give you the qualifications to get into any job apart from basic menial labour.

As for the rest, you are just rambling about how you fucked up your own chance at an education and this I do not care about. Maybe try focusing on educating yourself instead of wishing you could dictate who and what your tax is being spent on. Don't feel good about what it gets spent on? GET AN EDUCATION SO YOU CAN HAVE THE QUALIFICATIONS AND KNOWLEDGE TO GET A JOB THAT CAN ALLOW YOU TO REFORM THE TAX SYSTEM. That's a better option for you and every other person out there who stand together in negative solidarity demanding everyone be fairly screwed out of any release from the HARD WORK (tm) that you apparently think poor people have a choice to avoid.

Also EDUCATING PEOPLE WHO COULDN'T AFFORD IT OTHERWISE LETS THEM GET BETTER JOBS AND THUS EARN MORE MONEY IN THE FUTURE AND THUS PAY MORE TAX. I put that in capitals because I don't think you understand it

And yes, poor people DO get into uni. But not enough of them. There needs to be more. And they need to be able to do it without getting into debt for their whole lives.

Now saying that you can't accept people getting degrees in things that don't benefit you or other people and then saying that this does not include art or philosophy is ridiculous. Deciding to only award degrees for things that are practical or definitively economically viable is highly unwise. I don't care if you don't "like it", but some kid who has grown up poor his whole life but has a passion for art DOES deserve to get a college education in art on your tax dollar. It may be the thing that saves him from a wasted life or life in a factory. It may be the best experience of his life. It will probably show him an entirely different world and new people. Free philosophy education for the working class breeds intellectuals, writers and thinkers in their ranks. They do better, we all do better. Pricing it out of their range screws us ALL over.

As for your second post of self righteous folksy "look at me I'm authentically proletarian", you aren't making any point there at all. Save for the basic fact that people in your family used the money they got from their work to buy the things they wanted. Actually swa, we all do this, and it does not make you somehow special.

Now maybe your entire working class family might want to think about the fact that if there was more working class people with any position of influence they could change the tax system to tax the rich MORE and tax the working class LESS. So then you wouldn't have to suffer the injustice of your tax being used to pay teachers.

No, "not buying a lexus" isn't working class. That's fucking laughable. I cannot think of any working class person besides an utter fucking idiot who would say that.

If you are poor and you can't afford to buy a lexus not being able to buy one doesn't make you working class. what the fuck are you talking about? If someone has enough money to be able to afford to throw it all away, basically waste it they aren't really working class. Maybe they used to be, maybe they still work, wasting money on extravagant things you can't afford is what any sane person avoids. This does not make you special.

You are trying to make this entire argument about class which is a redundant point. Obviously there are some working class people and middle class people who can afford college educations. MOST CANT. thats the entire point.

I read everything up until you attacking me. My chances? For real? I'm doing fantastic! I've got a car, a beautiful girl, a job, a roof over my head, my lights are on and my gas is running...all of which I pay for. Really...what else do I need?

Free schooling only to perhaps achieve more of what I already have? That makes no sense to me.

[kinn]

It wasn't about you. Noone wanted to hear about your life or have this turn into a discussion about it. We were discussing an issue that is about other people and not just our own selfish individualistic desires. Whenever you couldn't back up or answer any of the points made you started personalising it. I really don't care about your life or want to hear about it, if it was worthwhile you wouldn't have to be on here convincing us and yourself. Maybe you don't want more education, but other people do, and they deserve to have it as an option and not be priced out of it.

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by kinn

It wasn't about you. Noone wanted to hear about your life or have this turn into a discussion about it. We started off discussing an issue that is other people and not just our own selfish individualistic desires. Whenever you couldn't back up or answer any of the points made you started personalising it. I really don't care about your life or want to hear about it, if it was worthwhile you wouldn't have to be on here convincing us and yourself. Maybe you don't want more education, but other people do, and they deserve to have it as an option and not be priced out of it.

My life was used only as an example of expressing my own point. Sorry I'm not one of those that looks beyond my own experience to express as such.

I've never seen a man live for several days in the stomach of a whale.

[ann ashtray]

I'm about to go to bed...

But to sum this up (for the night)...Ill say:

You think school should be free...

To that I say "fine and dandy"...

But, the way I you present your side...I also see "free school equals better society".

I'm sorry, but I don't see many people waking up tomorrow and realizing "hey school is free lets go learn to change the world"....

Shit don't work like that. Even if most were to take advantage of such a service, it would boil down to a hopeful, more personal, gain. If one truly wants this, they'll manage to do it without free schooling.

A better/more intelligent world boils down to much, much, much more than free school.

[kinn]

Swa, moronic counter point you tried to use to refute a six word strawman simplification of the entire series of points I made is evidence in itself at the sharp and stunning critical faculties of those who believe they are self sufficient and need no education from anyone other than themselves.

Thanks so much for sharing your insight.

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by kinn

Swa, moronic counter point you tried to use to refute a six word strawman simplification of the entire series of points I made is evidence in itself at the sharp and stunning critical faculties of those who believe they are self sufficient and need no education from anyone other than themselves.

Thanks so much for sharing your insight.

I've received education....I've read books, and even though I don't agree with your opinions, I'm communicating with you. This can only mean exposure to other ideas for me to, at the very least, consider.

Nice use of a run on sentence. You learn this technique at a university?

[Genteel Death]

So, is this divorce then?

[kinn]

The idea that people will decide to "change the world" with or without school is the idea of a fucking retard.

You said you weren't even reading what I said earlier. Now you're claiming to be learning. What the fuck ever sway.

This could go on for a long time. I'm not going to start getting into a discussion about you or your life since it's just excruciating to do so. You have nothing to contribute to the discussion of free education and are just using it as an opportunity to talk about your shitty self involved swaniverse as usual. this must get sickening even for you. I've finished listening now.

What I've said about funding education can stand as it is.

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by kinn

The idea that people will decide to "change the world" with or without school is the idea of a fucking retard.

You said you weren't even reading what I said earlier. Now you're claiming to be learning. What the fuck ever sway.

This could go on for a long time. I'm not going to start getting into a discussion about you or your life since it's just excruciating to do so.

What I've said about funding education can stand as it is.

Only one response of yours did I choose to not finish reading, and that's only because you chose to attack me like most any intelligent person would do.

And you and suchfriends talk about how much better things would be with free education...how does this NOT apply to "wanting a better world"?

Please do answer....or go fuck yourself with your "I know I sound Like a hippy but am embarrassed when someone calls me out on it" bullshit.

[kinn]

Originally Posted by swa

Please do answer....or go fuck yourself with your "I know I sound Like a hippy but am embarrassed when someone calls me out on it" bullshit.-

I have absolutely no idea what you are saying but it sounds fucking stupid.

Advocating subsidized adult education is my position. If you are going to keep trying to get a halfway decent troll out of this then go by all means go ahead. I'll check in briefly and see how far you've gotten.

[Glice]

If anyone's keeping tabs, Glice officially was convinced by suchfriends' working class credentials but not swa's.

[Derek]

but what can he say to the lil homiez?

[gast30]

there is also an otherside

if people like to be free from an 'industrial machine'
that is also a way you can look at it

that you studie the world in your own way
'autodidacticly'

that you feel that you have the right
to live seperated from big structures of work, school, industries
and have a place for you where you can live

that you say, this is not my idea of life, it was here before i was born
i don't need to be a number that has a digital identification
for beeing part of something, where you don't feel part of
and you have no right to force me to go to school or work

whitout seeing all these big structures like your enemy where you need to rebel to

i'm a part of freedom
i'm a part of nature