[acousticrock87]

Originally Posted by Radioactive Poltergeist

What do you mean by this? I suppose you mean someone like Mahmoud Abbas who has been championed by most Western governments as the acceptable moderate. And yet this is a man whose party did not seem to understand that they lost an election and have become more or less collaborators with the Israelis.

If you're saying that Abbas is not moderate, why would you assume that's who he agrees with?

[HaydenAsche]

I don't trust either. If you ain't like me you can hang from a damn tree as far as I'm concerned.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Radioactive Poltergeist

Are you kidding? These attacks are seriously hurting the Palestinian people and if you believe that this was not intended by the Israeli government then you are being foolish. These are serious attacks on an infrastructure which has been seriously weakened by countless attacks on it for that very purpose.

Yes the attacks are seriously hurting the Palestinian people, but the target is Hamas. Just because I don't eat up every morsel of left-wing propaganda doesn't mean I'm being foolish.

Hamas is an islamist extremist group with the aim of destroying Israel, not making peace. That's what's foolish. Shooting rockets across the border and expecting that nothing will happen in return is fucking retarded.

The aim I suppose is to make the Gaza civilians uncomfortable enough under Hamas that they "unelect" them. Carrot, stick, etc. I think these tactics will backfire here (witness the public opinion) just like they didn in Lebanon. Then again, the Israeli foreign minister is a daughter of Irgun members, Olmert is a stupid fuck, and Israel hasn't had a decent government since they killed Rabin. The only thing I don't understand is what the fuck is Ehud Barak doing in this cabinet, but I'm hoping our Israel boardies will explain/clarify.

[Toilet & Bowels]

i haven't read the story about this incident but presumably hamas fired the rockets to prompt the israeli government to retaliate in a fashion that far outweighs the provocation?

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

i haven't read the story about this incident but presumably hamas fired the rockets to prompt the israeli government to retaliate in a fashion that far outweighs the provocation?

right, that's basically it, with he aim presumably being that of deterrence-- basic game theory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deterrence_theory

i say "presumably" because i don't know what the israeli government intends to achieve exactly, theya re saying "enough is enough" but how does this end the cycle of violence i don't know.

[Toilet & Bowels]

no, i meant hamas wanted the isrealis to retaliate in this fashion, to rally support for themselves (hamas), & to portrary the isreali government as tyranical, etc.

[Radioactive Poltergeist]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

Yes the attacks are seriously hurting the Palestinian people, but the target is Hamas. Just because I don't eat up every morsel of left-wing propaganda doesn't mean I'm being foolish.

Hamas is an islamist extremist group with the aim of destroying Israel, not making peace. That's what's foolish. Shooting rockets across the border and expecting that nothing will happen in return is fucking retarded.

The aim I suppose is to make the Gaza civilians uncomfortable enough under Hamas that they "unelect" them. Carrot, stick, etc. I think these tactics will backfire here (witness the public opinion) just like they didn in Lebanon. Then again, the Israeli foreign minister is a daughter of Irgun members, Olmert is a stupid fuck, and Israel hasn't had a decent government since they killed Rabin. The only thing I don't understand is what the fuck is Ehud Barak doing in this cabinet, but I'm hoping our Israel boardies will explain/clarify.

I'm not sure which "left-wing propaganda" you are referring to, and I don't understand what is "left-wing" about my position. Actually, a lot of what I understand about the conflict comes from official Israeli policy. They don't try particularly hard to conceal the fact that they follow policies of ethnic cleansing.

And again, what is with this whole "Hamas is out to destroy Israel". They have stated repeatedly that what they seek is the restoration of the pre 1967 borders which is thoroughly reasonable. This, as usual, is completely ignored.

As for the rockets, I don't condone them. I wonder though why you suppose they expect nothing to happen. There are probably numerous reasons for the rockets and I suspect most of them stem from the fact that the Palestinian people are in an utterly desperate situation.

And I still do not buy that this is simply about Hamas. Every Israeli government since Ben Gurion has stated in some way or other that the Palestinian people do not exist, or that they intend to drive the Palestinians out of their land entirely. This is all in print by the way, in Ha'aretz and government archives. Added to this is the fact this this tactic used by Israel drastically pre-dates Hamas. I refer you not to what you refer to as "propaganda", rather I ask you draw facts from reality. What you are doing is trying to theorize the problem into a tidy political issue, where Israel's intentions go no further than quashing Hamas. Yet by Israel's own admission they intend on grinding the population into the ground. In fact, this policy has been pursued long before 1948, it is very much ingrained in Israel's policy, regardless of whoever is in power. This isn't something Israel has actually denied, and is self evident anyway.

I mean, the answer to the problem is blindingly obvious: return illegally occupied land to their rightful owners, and there is a simple enough program to follow, which starts with the removal of all Israeli settlers, and the return to the pre 1967 borders.

[Radioactive Poltergeist]

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

no, i meant hamas wanted the isrealis to retaliate in this fashion, to rally support for themselves (hamas), & to portrary the isreali government as tyranical, etc.

Which would of course be accurate.

[Radioactive Poltergeist]

Originally Posted by acousticrock87

If you're saying that Abbas is not moderate, why would you assume that's who he agrees with?

I refer you to the post you are referring to where I state with good reason that Abbas is considered moderate by the Western governments involved in the peace process.

[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by Radioactive Poltergeist

Which would of course be accurate.

yeah, but it amounts to hamas sacrificing palestinian lives to strengthen their political position

[Daddylikes]

The only way that Hamas is justified in existing is if either 1.) Israel ceases to exist or 2.)Israel and Palestine is in constant conflict.

Hamas actually benefits when Israelis kill Palestinians. I know that makes very little sense, but the attacks of Israel on Palestine actually give Hamas much needed legitimacy in the minds of civilians who might not have been so sympathetic to the cause before.

[Radioactive Poltergeist]

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

yeah, but it amounts to hamas sacrificing palestinian lives to strengthen their political position

Right, so if it is wrong for those Palestinians to die then Israel should ignore the rocket attacks which are more or less harmless. Regardless, I wouldn't be so quick to jump to conclusions about the intentions of Hamas. Short of another intifada rockets are pretty much the only means these people have of fighting back against an occupying force.

[Daddylikes]

They could always decide that they didn't want to fight back against the occupying force and instead work with them...

...but that would be too easy!

[Radioactive Poltergeist]

Originally Posted by Daddylikes

The only way that Hamas is justified in existing is if either 1.) Israel ceases to exist or 2.)Israel and Palestine is in constant conflict.

Hamas actually benefits when Israelis kill Palestinians. I know that makes very little sense, but the attacks of Israel on Palestine actually give Hamas much needed legitimacy in the minds of civilians who might not have been so sympathetic to the cause before.

You aren't saying anything particularly profound. Interesting you only say this about Hamas. Israel benefits from the rocket attacks in equal measure.

And the criteria you give for the existence of Hamas is bigoted and profoundly ignorant. I suggest you actually do some research because it is clear you haven't bothered to find anything out about Hamas at all. I have already stated twice in this thread that their demands rest on Israel allowing the existence of a Palestinian state. The facts are there if you bother to look, which you clearly have not.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Radioactive Poltergeist

I'm not sure what "left-wing propaganda" you are referring to, and I don't understand what is "left-wing" about my position.

the usual left-wing pap is the knee-jerk assumption that the weak are good and the strong are evil. hence hamas is seen as "good" by virtue of having less power than its enemies.

Originally Posted by Radioactive Poltergeist

And again, what is with this whole "Hamas is out to destroy Israel". They have stated repeatedly that what they seek is the restoration of the pre 1967 borders which is thoroughly reasonable. This, as usual, is completely ignored.

well it's stated in their charter that their goal is the destruction of israel, not a return to pre 1967 borders. if you have the sources for what you're saying, please provide, i'd be eager to read that, meanwhile, check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Hamas_documents

sorry to use wikipedia but it's really hard to find reliable sources and this is as neutral as i can get.

Originally Posted by Radioactive Poltergeist

As for the rockets, I don't condone them. I wonder though why you suppose they expect nothing to happen. There are probably numerous reasons for the rockets and I suspect most of them stem from the fact that the Palestinian people are in an utterly desperate situation.

yeah, but how do the rockets help their desperate situation? how does provoking a much stronger adversary help their people? the only thing this might accomplish is to boost their image as hardasses, but at the expense of their own population.

Originally Posted by Radioactive Poltergeist

And I still do not buy that this is simply about Hamas. Every Israeli government since Ben Gurion has stated in some way or other that the Palestinian people do not exist, or that they intend to drive the Palestinians out of their land entirely. This is all in print by the way, in Ha'aretz and government archives. Added to this is the fact this this tactic used by Israel drastically pre-dates Hamas. I refer you not to what you refer to as "propaganda", rather I ask you draw facts from reality. What you are doing is trying to theorize the problem into a tidy issue of politics where all Israel is intending to do is change regime, yet by Israel's own admission they intend on grinding the population into the ground. In fact, this policy has been pursued long before 1948, it is very much ingrained in Israel's policy, regardless of whoever is in power.

I disagree with this completely, especially because it ignores the internal struggles within the body politic of Israel. I call bullshit.

Originally Posted by Radioactive Poltergeist

I mean, the answer to the problem is blindingly obvious: return illegally occupied land to their rightful owners, and there is a simple enough program to follow, which starts with the removal of all Israeli settlers, and the return to the pre 1967 borders.

The problem with this argument is two-fold: one, is what different groups define as "illegaly occupied", and I don't know what you mean by it; two, is that the israeli right wing has argued that they need a buffer zone to protect themselves from artillery: they pull out of Gaza and the attacks increase instead of diminishing-- sort of proves their point and encourages a continued occupation of the West Bank-- which I think most people would agree would be a fucking tragedy.

[Radioactive Poltergeist]

Originally Posted by Daddylikes

They could always decide that they didn't want to fight back against the occupying force and instead work with them...

...but that would be too easy!

Yes, and it is a pity that the Polish didn't work alongside the Nazis. But those wonderful Vichy French did. What a model of common sense they were.

But you are of course joking, because such a suggestion would break the bounds of idiocy.

[ricechex]

Israel's response is over the top. The initial Hamas rockets MAY have killed someone, but to go and wipe out over 300 people in response seems out of hand. But this issue will never end bc of the extremists from both sides, mainly from the Hamas side. It only takes a handful to shoot rockets and ruin it for everyone else.

I am getting tired of Palistinians continually trying to restore things to pre-67 conditions. Too bad, land gets taken throughout the history of man. We did it too. Unfor, the religious rage will never give in. This just means more death.

[acousticrock87]

I'm calling 'bullshit' on everything anyone has said in this entire thread, including myself.

There. That's my opinion.

(And it's bullshit.)

[Daddylikes]

Way to make me want to become further enlightened.

Debate and discussion are always further fueled when someone antagonizes and debases those that they are debating.

Israel does not gain from being bogged down in an incessant and futile war with those who would go so far as to commit suicide in order to fan the flames of war.

Israel would gain a lot more if they were at peace.

It seems from your response that it is you who is bigoted and ignorant. While my view is completely oversimplified (how could it not be in the span of three sentances), your direct condemnation of me does nothing to spark enlightenment or agreement. If you wanted to spark a visceral dislike of your point of view, you have succeeded. If you desired to inform me further of your knowledge of the situation, you have failed.

Thanks for the enlightenment!

[Daddylikes]

Originally Posted by Radioactive Poltergeist

Yes, and it is a pity that the Polish didn't work alongside the Nazis. But those wonderful Vichy French did. What a model of common sense they were.

But you are of course joking, because such a suggestion would break the bounds of idiocy.

Comparing the Israelis to Nazis is a lot like comparing Apples to Rocks.



Again, I do not think that you seek to spread enlightenment or aggreement, but the opposite.