[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by Mortte Jousimo

If there came hiphop records in the seventies, just let me know...

The first couple of rap singles came out in 79, but the music was totally unrecorded for 3 or 4 years before that.

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

other genre's, funk, ska, reggae, eetc, while sharing instrumentation with rock and cohabitating with rock, are not about the riff.

They are. They're just played mainly on bass rather than guitar. And if you're saying it's all about the guitar riff, then what about Jerry Lee or Little Richard? There may be formal differences in how those riffs are played but a reliance on them definitely isn't what separates RnR from funk, or reggae, or ska. For all their differences, it's their emphasis on simple repetitive riffs that, if anything, unites them.

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

rock n roll was started by african americans.

I always thought RnR was a product of an African-American tradition coming together with a hillbilly/country one that had its roots in European folk - going back to stuff like shanties. The argument that people like Elvis simply stole 'black music' for a white audience is true in some ways (mainly in terms of marketing) but ignores the musical history of European settlers in America, and the different conditions that informed their culture. A song like It's Alright Mama isn't just a simple continuation of the Blues tradition, even though there are obviously key elements of it in there. And many of its other influences (yodeling, shanties, etc) predate the blues/jazz tradition.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Demonrail.. rock and roll was invented by black folks.. country fried white folks were influenced by it later but in its infancy it was black music, same with jazz, blues, and even rag time

[Severian]

Uhh.. I'm not sure I really get- or am on board with- the premise of this thread. Like, at all. Personally I think "ROCK" music is pretty god awful. The Hall of Fame is a really expensive joke. It exists as a tourist attraction, and all the rules about eligibility are bullshit.

Personally I think that the REALLY culturally significant bands (BEATLES, Dylan, Velvet Underground) should just get exhibits in the fucking Smithsonian. At least that would be a respectful, non cheese-ball, overpriced gift-shop way to honor them. Having Kiss and Van Halen stink up the air around them is just insulting.

But I guess I would put these guys in ASAP if I had my own personal music and pop culture museum...

The Velvet Underground
Sonic Youth
Stooges
Captain Beefheart
Can
Tom Waits
Kraftwerk
Joy Division
The Cure
Leonard Cohen
Lou Reed (solo)
Brian Eno
Hüsker Dü
Television
Big Star
T. Rex
Stone Roses
Spacemen 3
Replacements
New Order
Aphex Twin

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

They are. They're just played mainly on bass rather than guitar. And if you're saying it's all about the guitar riff, then what about Jerry Lee or Little Richard? There may be formal differences in how those riffs are played but a reliance on them definitely isn't what separates RnR from funk, or reggae, or ska. For all their differences, it's their emphasis on simple repetitive riffs that, if anything, unites them.
.

reggae, funk, ska, etc are primarily driven by walking bass lines and syncopated drums. riffs come from the blues, where the 16 bar motifs are repeated until the song is over.
piano riffs (little richard, jerry lee lewis), sax riffs, guitar riffs, etc. I think the riff is the basis for rock n roll. remember piano and sax were the first rock n roll lead instruments.

there is a straight line from chuck berry to AC-DC and beyond, of riffage.

none of this is value judgement, just discussing the components of the genres.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by Severian

Uhh.. I'm not sure I really get- or am on board with- the premise of this thread. Like, at all. Personally I think "ROCK" music is pretty god awful. The Hall of Fame is a really expensive joke. It exists as a tourist attraction, and all the rules about eligibility are bullshit.

Personally I think that the REALLY culturally significant bands (BEATLES, Dylan, Velvet Underground) should just get exhibits in the fucking Smithsonian. At least that would be a respectful, non cheese-ball, overpriced gift-shop way to honor them. Having Kiss and Van Halen stink up the air around them is just insulting.

But I guess I would put these guys in ASAP if I had my own personal music and pop culture museum...

The Velvet Underground
Sonic Youth
Stooges
Captain Beefheart
Can
Tom Waits
Kraftwerk
Joy Division
The Cure
Leonard Cohen
Lou Reed (solo)
Brian Eno
Hüsker Dü
Television
Big Star
T. Rex
Stone Roses
Spacemen 3
Replacements
New Order
Aphex Twin

you don;t think KISS or Van Halen are culturally significant but TRex and Stone Roses are?

[chocolate_ladyland]

Originally Posted by Severian

The Velvet Underground
Sonic Youth
Stooges
Captain Beefheart
Can
Tom Waits
Kraftwerk
Joy Division
The Cure
Leonard Cohen
Lou Reed (solo)
Brian Eno
Hüsker Dü
Television
Big Star
T. Rex
Stone Roses
Spacemen 3
Replacements
New Order
Aphex Twin

Too many white males on that list bro. Fuck preferences, you gotta think of the big picture.

[Rob Instigator]

"But, who will teach the kids about Bo Diddley?" - Dr. Johnny Fever

[evollove]

Originally Posted by chocolate_ladyland

Too many white males on that list bro. Fuck preferences, you gotta think of the big picture.

I was sort of half fucking around earlier. It's not really anyone's fault that the history of rock has mostly been cracker dick waving. If cracker dicks make all the records, of course lists like this will be heavy on cracker dick.

---

The Ronnettes
The Supremes
The Slits
The Raincoats
Go-Gos
Banannarama
The Bengals
Bikini Kill
Sleater-Kinney

I dunno. How many worthy chick bands did I miss?

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

So cracker grrls rectifies the situation?

[evollove]

2 out of 9 groups feature colored folk. A little more than 20%. I'm comfortable.

Is there an all-black riot grrrl band?

[Rob Instigator]

4 non blondes do not count

[chocolate_ladyland]

@evollove Patti Smith?

[chocolate_ladyland]

Wow nvm I'm retarded you asked for ALL chick bands Uhh have you ever heard of Dolly Mixture? They're first album is really cool

[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

They are. They're just played mainly on bass rather than guitar.

This.

And now for some examples of chalk and cheese:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho_Od3o9OLg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBXU2t4hodo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCjspyo-_aI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB8CMN-jX_g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IPEQNYD6oI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fgm7F30EN50
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD-VvbGa8H4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqZceAQSJvc

[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

I always thought RnR was a product of an African-American tradition coming together with a hillbilly/country one that had its roots in European folk - going back to stuff like shanties..

Yeah, I thought it was widely acknowledged now that the thing about white people stealing rock n roll from black people was kind of a reactionary response to the idea that Elvis invented RnR, or whatever, and that the true was that rock n roll was actually the result of harmonious biracial exchange.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Rock and Roll invented by black folks, adapted by white folks. This whole, "it has European" influences is a bunch of revisionist bullshit..

White people had their music, black people had theirs, and the black folks was better so the white folks started to become influenced by it. Personally I just don't hear any European influence in late 19th century and early 20-th century black music, period.

The very scales and polyrhythms which typified "black" music was vilified in European musics.. That European music also had "call and repeat" doesn't inherently mean that black music was influenced by it, indeed, the style of white American "call and repeat" was very different from the Africanized versions in black music.

If we're talking about AFTER the 1950s then there is a lot more borrowing, but if we're talking about music in its proto-developing stage, the physical divide of segregation did indeed dissuade cross-cultural mixing of the music.

It is a matter of historical fact that black folks pioneered rag time, then blues, then jazz, then rock and roll, then soul music.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by chocolate_ladyland

Too many white males on that list bro. Fuck preferences, you gotta think of the big picture.

I thought it was rock only... or something. And yeah- I know Parliament/Funkadelic and aphex twin are not rock, but they're both close enough to the rock trends of their respective eras. Parliament and Funkadelic played with some rock-type bands and Aphex Twin was on Alternative Nation lol.

Originally I had a 50 artist list, but so many of them were either totally not rock or already in the fucking HoF that I went through and clipped them.

it was at that point that I started wondering what the fuck I was doing. By the time I got to the question of "to Kanye or not to Kanye" I was like, "fuck it this is just a huge list of artists I like that aren't my favorite artists... I've wasted like fifteen minutes on this shit. Is my time worth so little?"

...

I guess I still don't understand. If anyone wants to know my favorite bands, I'll happily oblige. If anyone wants to know who I'd put in the R&R HoF if it belonged to me, I guess I'll answer, but don't tell me it can't overlap with my faves. And if it HAS to be rock, then what I put is the best I can do because I don't give a shit about rock, really.

Sure I love SY and Unwound and Sebadoh and Swans and the Fall and Joy Division, but those bands can all be described more accurately by the words "not rock" than "Rock n' Roll" which makes me think of ...well... Van Halen.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

This thread merely points to the continuing reality of structural racism in the entertainment industries..

Everybody keeps saying, "We're talking rock" then mentioning some non-rock genre more or less better represented by black folks. The reality is that there isn't necessarily a lack of black punk, metal, or rock bands, its that these bands don't get the kind of coverage and exposure which bring them to the spotlight. We can't name them because a racist structure has prevented our exposure to them..


So black folks are as involved in rock music as any other group, but the system itself favors selling this music as a non-black entity!

Also we see the dynamics of social racism, many of our scenes are not as integrated racially as are our societies, so there isn't enough interaction to create more bands with black folks represented, because socially blacks and whites aren't getting along as rosily as we'd hope! In fact, many studies are finding we are inching back towards social segregation which is kind of scary

[Severian]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

Rock and Roll invented by black folks, adapted by white folks. This whole, "it has European" influences is a bunch of revisionist bullshit..

White people had their music, black people had theirs, and the black folks was better so the white folks started to become influenced by it. Personally I just don't hear any European influence in late 19th century and early 20-th century black music, period.

The very scales and polyrhythms which typified "black" music was vilified in European musics.. That European music also had "call and repeat" doesn't inherently mean that black music was influenced by it, indeed, the style of white American "call and repeat" was very different from the Africanized versions in black music.

If we're talking about AFTER the 1950s then there is a lot more borrowing, but if we're talking about music in its proto-developing stage, the physical divide of segregation did indeed dissuade cross-cultural mixing of the music.

It is a matter of historical fact that black folks pioneered rag time, then blues, then jazz, then rock and roll, then soul music.

I'm rather certain that early forms of what would become known as "the blues" preceded Ragtime, which was itself basically the earliest form of jazz.

Actually I'm nowhere near certain... I just kinda think that.