[ni'k]

the recession was predicted by many people, only they mostly estimated it would happen few years earlier eg. michael ruppert, dave harvey, all those protestors who got beaten up outside the new york stock exchange in 04.

i think what people need to understand, is that labour didn't just do the same as the tories would have despite being seen as centre left, they were able to do these things precisely because of their perception as being centre left. could the tories really have gotten away with all the shit labour has? no chance. the scandals and crimes of the new labour years would have sunk a right wing party after 1 election, no way they would have continued on to win 3.

it's like obama, a rebranded president who is able to carry on some of the worst of bushes foreign and security policies. bush couldn't have gotten away with that shit.

people should realise that a centre left party or candidate that might give us some moderate gains on social issues like gay rights etc. is always going to be used by the establishment to push far right goals.

i'll be very glad to see the end of new labour, obviously very angry about the evil the tories are about to unleash.

however, a few things give me hope. i would be very surprised if the tories can hold onto power for more than one term. come the spending cuts they are going to go back to unelectable again. there is going to be a vicious hatred for this government, all new labours fuck ups still stand. they'll do their best to reverse any of labours modest achievements, like nhs waiting times. the massive round of cuts and job losses is going to push a large part of the nation further down into poverty and crisis. sometime in the next 50 days the cuts will have to surface. be prepared.

this will have both positive and negative affects: radicalisation - increased community awareness and interaction, a boost for the left
OR
the denial, forced ignorance, macho hedonism and nihlistic bravado that are the hallmarks of concioussness in liberal capitalist democracies now. gains for the far right and poverty and degradation destroying peoples health and sanity further. an increase in negative solidarity and an even stronger forced apoliticality.

i'm sure we'll see a bit of both. we don't have the same radical awareness and history as the greeks but the same state of affairs is coming to our shores. now would be a great time to read http://tarnac9.wordpress.com/texts/t...-insurrection/

after the results are in i'll have a blog post up getting into all this in more depth.

[Pookie]

Originally Posted by Glice

The war that Labour backbenchers tried to revolt against, but found that it was passed with Tory co-operation (and was only seriously resisted by LD)? The think tank headed by a senior Tory which recommended going into Iraq on the basis of false information about WMDs?

Economy would've been fucked anyway (you can't predict a recession, you can only react to it), but putting money into the banks from public funds rather than leaving it to the markets to continue raping it (the Tory line) makes more sense to me (although I'd agree more stringent caps on things like pensions are needed)

We all live with national minimum wage now, something that again the Tories would leave to the markets to decide (and we've all read Das Kapital, we know what happens when markets are left to their own devices). Not 'left' left-wing, but certainly left of the Tories.

Senior adviser bit I've got nothing on, but it's hardly privatising everything in sight and steamrollering over trade unions, is it?

OK so you're a better person for ignoring his conspiracy theory twattery.

Have a picture of Sophie Dahl's boobies.

 

[ni'k]

david kelly was murdered. its not a theory. its a conspiracy fact.

[SonicBebs]

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

labour are far from ideal and a bit right wing, but not half as bad as the tories. and most of the things you mentioned would have happened under the tories anyway, but worse.

absolutley, don't get me wrong i'm certainly not going to vote torrie either, but this time i can't bring myself to vote labour

[SonicBebs]

Originally Posted by Glice

The war that Labour backbenchers tried to revolt against, but found that it was passed with Tory co-operation (and was only seriously resisted by LD)? The think tank headed by a senior Tory which recommended going into Iraq on the basis of false information about WMDs?

Economy would've been fucked anyway (you can't predict a recession, you can only react to it), but putting money into the banks from public funds rather than leaving it to the markets to continue raping it (the Tory line) makes more sense to me (although I'd agree more stringent caps on things like pensions are needed)

We all live with national minimum wage now, something that again the Tories would leave to the markets to decide (and we've all read Das Kapital, we know what happens when markets are left to their own devices). Not 'left' left-wing, but certainly left of the Tories.

Senior adviser bit I've got nothing on, but it's hardly privatising everything in sight and steamrollering over trade unions, is it?

again, i'm not pro torrie. Just anti labour (and torrie)

[Pookie]

Originally Posted by ni'k

david kelly was murdered. its not a theory. its a conspiracy fact.

 

[SonicBebs]

and no, you can't predict a recesion (and it possibly would have been far worse with a Conservative government) but the government is in control of the country and the economy and is ultimatley responsible. To vote them back in and say "hey, you fucked up and fucked us up but dont worry, have another go at spending my tax money on bankers bonuses" is daft

and once again (to make it stick) i am not voting torrie

[ni'k]

not in this case pookie. altho i think its less a case of you having factual disagreements with the murder idea and more that you don't want it to be true.

anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4gpH...layer_embedded

baseball bats are the only way to deal with the bnp.

[SonicBebs]

and Pookie, nice one for making this thread non-work safe
x

[Pookie]

I've written and deleted a few replies to SonicBebs and n'ik but John Stewart says it better than anything I've written:

 

[Toilet & Bowels]

i don't think David Kelly commited suicide, but I'm fairly certain he wasn't killed by the labour party either. There's plenty of fishiness surrounding his death if you look into it.

[Glice]

If you want a more likely conspiracy to get actively involved with, try Justice for Jerry. They need all the help they can get, so if you could at least take a look, that'd be great [/serious post]

[Toilet & Bowels]

Thanks for the link, I'll donate.

To the people who are dismissive of the issues surrounding David Kelly's death, have you actually read in to it?

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by Glice

If you want a more likely conspiracy to get actively involved with, try Justice for Jerry. They need all the help they can get, so if you could at least take a look, that'd be great [/serious post]

What a genuinely terrible story. I've signed the petition. I've just been reading some stuff about the group believed responsible which sounds particularly disturbing.

These two clips are interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpSx8K0U21A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK1zxZmK4gs

[pokkeherrie]

Originally Posted by Glice

This article has disturbed me quite a lot.

After having just read this, I have to say it's indeed quite disturbing. Disgusting even. It's such a strong attack on the Tories that I even googled the political stance of The Independent to check, but it seems to be one of the better newspapers of the UK.

Working at an emergency shelter myself I've often seen how desperate these people can be, especially women and then especially when they're pregnant and/or have young children with them. Putting those out on the streets is a huge embarassment for any civilised society.

That's not even mentioning that the people you'll find in emergency shelters/crisis centres usually tend to be a lot more than "just homeless". More often than not it involves cases of domestic violence, child abuse, human trafficking, psychiatric illness and what not. You cannot have these people depend on volunteers alone, that's just ridiculous. They need professional help.

[Glice]

It does reveal the hole in Tory thinking, to my mind. Obviously, we'd all love the society where everyone helps each other out, and it's not necessarily the government's place to impose or intercede in culture. However, the least-privileged members of society are the ones that get fucked over the most, and the ones that require greatest help. The legions of doleites, terminal non-workers and benefit scroungers are definitely a problem and a drain on society (they are a minority as well though) but you don't get rid of that problem by just shuttling them to another area in the hope they take their poverty with them.

[space]

Originally Posted by Pookie

OK so you're a better person for ignoring his conspiracy theory twattery.

Have a picture of Sophie Dahl's boobies.

 

tits or gtf.....carry on!

[pokkeherrie]

Originally Posted by Glice

It does reveal the hole in Tory thinking, to my mind. Obviously, we'd all love the society where everyone helps each other out, and it's not necessarily the government's place to impose or intercede in culture. However, the least-privileged members of society are the ones that get fucked over the most, and the ones that require greatest help. The legions of doleites, terminal non-workers and benefit scroungers are definitely a problem and a drain on society (they are a minority as well though) but you don't get rid of that problem by just shuttling them to another area in the hope they take their poverty with them.

Well yeah, obviously nobody likes the people who don't contribute to society. Everybody has their own personal responsibilities and I'm in no way propagating a nanny state. But sending those who can't keep up with society out in the cold shows a serious lack of humanism in my mind.

[Toilet & Bowels]

Yes, it's better to have a society that provides for those unable to provide for themselves even if that means you get benefit cheats, rather than a society that allows it's citizens to rot and die

[Glice]

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

Yes, it's better to have a society that provides for those unable to provide for themselves even if that means you get benefit cheats, rather than a society that allows it's citizens to rot and die

This isn't even hyperbole - the Tories would quite happily leave its citizens to rot and die. OH GOD PLEASE DON'T LET THEM GET IN.