[Severian]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

your second point I agree with. The first point however, is a bit off. "cool jazz" is melody based on modal scales, not tonal scales. I did not mean to say that a specific melody had to be followed, but that it was the basis of the improvisation. How to get from note A to note B and do so in a new and never before heard way
...

Big Bands have everyone keep a set groove and they improv in their individual bits. It depends on whether the jazz is intended as dancing music or listening music. dance music needs to have a set beat and rhythm for the dancers, and jazz/jass originated as dancing music, like the blues.

I know what you meant. I'm sorry if my response somehow confused things, or if I gave the wrong impression.
I didn't think you were saying that a specific melody needed to be followed, because with "Cool Jazz", that's not the case at all, and you clearly know enough to know that.

Without getting too wrapped up in technical concepts, or bringing fugue and polytonality into the discussion, I think we both understand how melody is used in Modal Jazz as compared to, say, "big band."

When I think of cool jazz, or try to explain what it is, I usually refer to songs that exemplify the style. Songs like "So What", (which is an example of the point you're making about melody) and "My Favorite Things", which is a perfect example of what I'm saying about standards and traditional numbers being a major part of this era of jazz.

In cool jazz period, modal renditions of melodies from "pop" standards were often used as unifying themes and launching points for modal compositions. Coltrane's quartet wasn't covering "My Favorite Things", or even playing through the song's set chord progressions.

The band played within the larger parameters of the parent mode of the song, rather than the notes and chords of the original, giving the vamping and comping players more to do, and allowed for simultaneous improvisation. This gave the song a much broader range, and allowed the soloists to venture far beyond the tonal limits that would be imposed on a Big Band. In essence it was a new piece of music almost entirely. The familiar melody from the Sound of Music would pop up and slink in and out of focus, and that's what I mean when I stress the importance of melody in Cool Jazz. Original or rendition, the melodic component allows the piece to resolve, or take a breather,

. It's easy to confuse these with "covers" but they're not.. for many reasons, but particularly because the musicians were not comping on the set chord progression of the original song, but were, instead, extending into the parent mode. So, the song would start with a familiar melody, and then splinter off into different keys, creating what amounts to a completely new song.

In bebop, and in big band, the melody was repeated a great deal more, but my gods was it boring for those poor bastards backing up whoever had the solo.

Jam bands like Phish and such use such improvisation and so does a lot of latin music, especially stuff like salsa and bossanova, but it is not jazz per se.

Ornette Coleman's early free jazz work consists of the group playing the set melody for about 15 seconds and then going off into free improv of all instruments at once.

1. I've always liked Phish because I can hear jazz in their music. The lyrics may be idiotic, but some of their songs would fit a scholar's definition of jazz. They're amazing players.

2. Yes! Ornette's (RIP) free jazz was like a deconstruction of a deconstruction. like Cool Jazz changing from Bruce Banner to the Hulk.

---

And all I was saying about improvisation was that not all sub-genres of jazz used improvisation as fundamentally as cool jazz and free jazz did. Improvisation is not necessarily a stylistic requirement of making jazz music. I'm just not particularly interested in any form of jazz that doesn't include it.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

ah i see-- thanks!

i do have a theoretical question though (the type of shit philosophers like to shoot for whatever reason): what happens if the band plays 100% as on paper? even "arranged to sound like improvisation, but not really"? what does it become

A high school jazz band.

[Rob Instigator]

I dig it Severian. It is awesome to time travel musically between the very early Louis Armstrong music, to Lester Young to Ellington to Parker to Miles to Brubeck to Coltrane to Coleman to Kirk.....

[evollove]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

where many music forms are based on the beat (ska as opposed to rocksteady as opposed to reggae) or repeated riffs (bluegrass, or blues, or rock n roll), Jazz music is based on the use of musical theory to improvise/compose while playing.

When did the dotted eighth notes become a staple of the genre? That's sort of my sticking point with "non-traditional" jazz. I need to hear the swing. But it didn't always have that?

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Severian

A high school jazz band.

haaa haa haaa

okay, but it's still jazz then?

[!@#$%!]

anyway, iistening again & again to

 

LIGHTNING BOLT - FANTASY EMPIRE (2O15)

great & great & great & great & great

how can just 2 people create this much complexity? insane.

i fucking love it.

[Severian]

I was once the object of what can only be described as an "intervention", in which four or five of my "math rock" enthusiast friends tried to convince me that Yes was the greatest math rock band in the history of the world.

I laughed at first, thinking it was a joke, and seriously a couple of them looked at me like I'd just defended Hitler. I don't think they ever got over that.

I really tried to listen fairly because these were my friends, but it just felt ridiculous.

Aside from their hits, I've only listened to them a couple of times. It didn't click. Last time was years ago, so I'm thinking I should consider giving it another go.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Severian

I was once the object of what can only be described as an "intervention", in which four or five of my "math rock" enthusiast friends tried to convince me that Yes was the greatest math rock band in the history of the world.

I laughed at first, thinking it was a joke, and seriously a couple of them looked at me like I'd just defended Hitler. I don't think they ever got over that.

I really tried to listen fairly because these were my friends, but it just felt ridiculous.

Aside from their hits, I've only listened to them a couple of times. It didn't click. Last time was years ago, so I'm thinking I should consider giving it another go.

your friends' appreciation showed good taste but the definition was wrong-- yes is not math rock, math rock is a weak-sauce derivative of prog rock. okay, it's a cleaned-up version, cooler and more intellectual. but it's definitely derivative whereas the ancients were the ones who broke the ground.

as for the ridiculousness, it's definitely there, and in many places. but it's a band with such a long history and personnel changes it's really not one band at all-- at some point there were 2 yes bands if i'm correct, and they had to had to recombine, probably for legal reasons, into one again-- from which their "union" record came out. but that's the 90s and i don't care about that. so i can't know what you heard or what it sounded like.

for me it's back to the 70s where the good stuff happened. just like late-80s sonic youth, in a way.

speaking of 70s and 90s-- i'm almost sure modest mouse uses the opening of "survival" in one of their songs, i just can't pinpoint which one is it. "survival" is one of the best tracks of yes's first album ('yes"). please do not confuse "yes" with "the yes album"-- they're 2 different ones ha ha ha ha. but "yes" is from 1969. so. hm. er.

don't laugh at them again or vincent gallo will hex your colon. he's a huuuuuuuuuge fan. and he's been known to hex colons.

[stu666]

 

[rebeccagotcursedout]

the only time I enjoyed Yes was the edit version of Roundabout on the radio and in Buffalo 66. otherwise crap.

King Crimson guy here. math rock has NOTHING to do with prog.

[Mortte Jousimo]

Originally Posted by evollove

Fair enough.

I listened to chunks of Yessongs and at least I can appreciate how others like them.

But weird question: how do you listen to Yes? Is it something you concentrate on or something you play in the background?

PS - I always liked "Roundabout." The 3:30 single edit. Just played it twice in a row.
[/i]."

I never listened music as a background. I prefer silence if I don´t want to listen music. Of course I do homeworks sometimes while listening music, but try also then concentrate to music too. But I think most of the Yes material could easily be background music.

[Mortte Jousimo]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

of course, it's a live album, and it's fantastic even without bruford, but some parts of it sound pretty bad, seriously. the stravinsky thing is shrill, the alan white drums sound real muddy in some tracks, etc.

---

thanks for all those links, it's a lot to process and i'll check them out. about union, etc:-- i've always been fearful of post-70s yes because, i don't know, it wasn't yes anymore etc. and i have this notion that with their era over and them wanting to keep with the times the result was poor and just no. but i'll check out union & see what my ears tell me.

also the otehr links-- i'm internet restricted early in the morning so i have to wait for the fast verion to be available. thanks for all that.



the bruford tracks are "perpetual change" and... well, look them up. but if you're starting just approach from these albums first: the yes album, fragile, close to the edge. those 3 are their best period and a good point of reference to judge the rest.

Year ago I listened all Yes albums (all studio and also most of the live albums). I think they all sound just Yes. I have always liked 90125 and Big Generator, even they are most AOR-albums of Yes there are also interesting Yes-elements in them. I think they are lot better than for example Genesis albums at the same time. Of course those three you mentioned are the best Yes-albums. I think Yes become that "spaceship" it´s known in Close to the Edge, I think three previous albums are for that reason the most interesting ones. Relayer has always been also one of my favourites, learned to like also topographic. Awaken is one of their greatest songs.

[Mortte Jousimo]

Originally Posted by rebeccagotcursedout

the only time I enjoyed Yes was the edit version of Roundabout on the radio and in Buffalo 66. otherwise crap.

King Crimson guy here. math rock has NOTHING to do with prog.

Even I am a big Yes-fan, I think King Crimson is better. And again seventies albums are the best, although their later material is also good (haven´t listened almost at all their eighties albums, going to listen). Earthbound & Islands are only weaker albums, but they are also great comparing many other seventies albums. And Mr. Bruford also in four seventies album, but I really love also Giles drumplaying.

[gmku]

I can't stand progressive rock from the 70s. I couldn't stand it then, can't now. I have a few Jethro Tull albums, and they are more bearable, slightly. Whitest white boy music ever made.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by rebeccagotcursedout

King Crimson guy here. math rock has NOTHING to do with prog.

king crimson guy here too-- doesn't have to be mutually exclusive! and of course it does.

Originally Posted by gmku

Whitest white boy music ever made.

but you're white, suchfriends!

i mean gmku...

(and so is steely dan)

Originally Posted by Mortte Jousimo

I never listened music as a background. I prefer silence if I don´t want to listen music. Of course I do homeworks sometimes while listening music, but try also then concentrate to music too. But I think most of the Yes material could easily be background music.

oh yes i forgot to answer this.

it was with a story.

when i was 13, i think, i got my first yes record-- it was yessongs. it had been smuggled for me in someone's suitcase, because they didn't sell those at our national record stores. it was was also well past the era when yes was popular, so getting it for me was sort of difficult. but anyway it showed up in my hands. why? because some older cousin said something about it being great, etc., and when someone asked, i say "yes", and blam, yessongs. well...

at the same time/age, i had discovered borges-- the writer. he blew my fucking mind with alternative universes and visions of the infinite (the mathematical infinite, not the mystical one).

i remember trying to read borges while playing that yessongs record. holy shit. my brain collapsed from the overload. i had to do one at a time.

so yes (ha), i had to really listen to really get it, but over the years i've learned each note by heart so that it no longer strains me.

--

and yes was the band that got me interested in classical music, actually. because that shit was scarce as well, growing up, and they opened a massive door.

[gmku]

I identify as non-white. Or, off-white. Whatever works.

[Mortte Jousimo]

To me it´s totally same is music black or white (or maybe yellow or red). I just listen music I like. I think Flamin Grooves is quite white music (yeah, it has bluesbase blaablaablaa).

[Mortte Jousimo]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

oh yes i forgot to answer this.

it was with a story.

when i was 13, i think, i got my first yes record-- it was yessongs. it had been smuggled for me in someone's suitcase, because they didn't sell those at our national record stores. it was was also well past the era when yes was popular, so getting it for me was sort of difficult. but anyway it showed up in my hands. why? because some older cousin said something about it being great, etc., and when someone asked, i say "yes", and blam, yessongs. well...

at the same time/age, i had discovered borges-- the writer. he blew my fucking mind with alternative universes and visions of the infinite (the mathematical infinite, not the mystical one).

i remember trying to read borges while playing that yessongs record. holy shit. my brain collapsed from the overload. i had to do one at a time.

so yes (ha), i had to really listen to really get it, but over the years i've learned each note by heart so that it no longer strains me.

--

and yes was the band that got me interested in classical music, actually. because that shit was scarce as well, growing up, and they opened a massive door.

My oldest brother had Relayer in vinyl. I think I was maybe four or five when listening it. Didn´t understand it much of course, but I remember it was interesting. Specially Gates of Delirium was like fairytale to me. And sound Chaser has exotic sounds to the child. Few years later my other brother didn´t like prog at all, so I didn´t also (I listened then CCR, Lynyrd Skynyrd, ZZ Top, Jimi Hendrix, Doors etc.) Anyway near of us lived older guy, who had prog albums and I borrowed the Yes album few years later (I think I was 10 years old). Yours Is No Disgrace was the song that hit me and my Yes-trip began. I think Fragile was the first album I bought few years later. I have still also that Relayer-vinyl, my brother gave it to me when he moved from home.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by gmku

I identify as non-white. Or, off-white. Whatever works.

it doesn't work. at all, ha ha ha. but don't worry about it-- it's all bogus. listen to this prog rock album instead

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDzSp5MABl4

"but it's not prog!"

a lot of it sounds to me like prog motifs recombined after minimalism

Originally Posted by Mortte Jousimo

My oldest brother had Relayer in vinyl. I think I was maybe four or five when listening it. Didn´t understand it much of course, but I remember it was interesting. Specially Gates of Delirium was like fairytale to me. And sound Chaser has exotic sounds to the child. Few years later my other brother didn´t like prog at all, so I didn´t also (I listened then CCR, Lynyrd Skynyrd, ZZ Top, Jimi Hendrix, Doors etc.) Anyway near of us lived older guy, who had prog albums and I borrowed the Yes album few years later (I think I was 10 years old). Yours Is No Disgrace was the song that hit me and my Yes-trip began. I think Fragile was the first album I bought few years later. I have still also that Relayer-vinyl, my brother gave it to me when he moved from home.

oh man. when i was 10 i was the prisoner of shit radio hits. music was whatever played on the radio. and then-- blam!

i wish i still had my old records but migration requires light packing.

[Mortte Jousimo]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

oh man. when i was 10 i was the prisoner of shit radio hits. music was whatever played on the radio. and then-- blam!

i wish i still had my old records but migration requires light packing.

They played quite good music in the radio in Finland in the eighties. But I think it was only few hours maybe two times a week. Radio was always open then & I recorded many songs to the cassette.

BTW I am listening Crimson Discipline. This is lot better album than I remembered! I am missing the warmth of Crimson seventies records, but anyway great music!