[Mortte Jousimo]

I don´t have to read books about eighties, I have lived it through (and survived). And already then I was active in what´s happening in the popular culture. Maybe it was little different in Finland than in US or UK, but I don´t think there was lots of differences in mainstream. What was popular in UK & US, was also in Finland. Maybe I listen that Peels, when I have enough time.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by evollove

He used a cheap trick, which I think is fair play.

But okay.


Take 2:

Morte, may I recommend a book called Our Band Could Be Your Life, which I think does good job of capturing the excitement that occurred in the 80s, albeit under the mainstream radar?

Also, may I suggest listening to Peel's Festive 50s from the 80s? I believe you'll come across tons of great stuff.

I gotta say, I've been thinking this all along. I agree with you 100% here, and your post about Minutemen sums up exactly why this is a debate that has no resolution. It can continue to be a discussion, as log as nobody gets nasty or unnecessarily offended, but obviously Morte just thinks more highly of the music of the '90s than we do.

And it sounds like when we talk about he '80s, we're talking about bands that have nothing to do with Kajagoogoo or Duran Duran. :/

[Severian]

Originally Posted by Mortte Jousimo

I don´t have to read books about eighties, I have lived it through (and survived). And already then I was active in what´s happening in the popular culture. Maybe it was little different in Finland than in US or UK, but I don´t think there was lots of differences in mainstream. What was popular in UK & US, was also in Finland. Maybe I listen that Peels, when I have enough time.

I think the point of suggesting the book is not to inform you about the '80s itself, but to give you an idea of what many of us think about when we think of that decade. That is, the American indie underground, and what was happening in California, the Midwest, Seattle, Boston, NYC and DC in the clubs and basements, and how ideas were swapped back and forth between struggling U.S. Bands and their UK/Irish/Scottish counterparts.

Maybe this is a part of the '80s that you didn't experience first hand, because of geographic limitations... Of for whatever reason.

[evollove]

Yep.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Severian

I think the point of suggesting the book is not to inform you about the '80s itself, but to give you an idea of what many of us think about when we think of that decade. That is, the American indie underground, and what was happening in California, the Midwest, Seattle, Boston, NYC and DC in the clubs and basements, and how ideas were swapped back and forth between struggling U.S. Bands and their UK/Irish/Scottish counterparts.

Maybe this is a part of the '80s that you didn't experience first hand, because of geographic limitations... Of for whatever reason.

living in a 3rd world dictatorship with government owned media i had almost no access to that scene or any music scene for that matter, only mostly pop shit, but when i came to the us in the 90s i connected to that current pretty soon-- i remember i had only 2 cassettes in my car-- one was evol the other was the VU. i couldn't afford to buy much but those were completely new to me in the 90s. i loved them.

i think it's unfair to show that video w/ the eurythmics cover of lou reed. i like annie lennox voice sometimes but eurythmics was horrible. conversely one could show devo's cover of satisfaction or siouxie's cover of dear prudence-- both great covers and for my taste an improvement on the original on some aspects. yes both covers are 70s things to be specific but both bands reached their height of popularity in the 80s. there were good popular bands like talking heads or b-52s or even REM (not my taste but hey deserve respect).

let's not forget that for all the good rock the 70s had to offer it also engendered atrocities like disco which may have had its gems but it was mostly empty boring shit--plastic drums and all manner of loops were used heavily then, and only appropriated by "new wave" pop-rock later.

i think it's nice morte likes geetar rock but in the 80s technology was exploding-- it could not romantically be avoided forever though, just like the prerafaelites couldn't stop the industrial revolutio by painting fairies.

rock itself was the product of technology-- without electric instruments it wouldnt' have existed--and dylan eventually got there in '65 to much controversy. similarly, electronics had to be embraced by popular music as the computer age took over. even 70s heros had to adapt or die.

ex-genesis peter gabriel (who lorded over the most pastoral era of the band before phil collins turned it into musical feces) ended up doing synthpop shit like his video with the dancing chicken. queen which proudly would stamp "made without synthesizers" in their 70s record covers ended up using them in the late 70s/early 80s and recording with bowie. yes after their late-70s collapse reformed by incorporating the "video killed the radio star" huy & put out one last good record. rockers that wanted to remain true to their history just got more bloated and irrelevant (hair bands) though they were still hugely popular. meanwhile someone like laurie anderson crossed from minimalism into popular music with a record like "big science." i love that record-- the ones that followed not so much. but it really sort of announced the territory the 80s had to conquer & experiment with. i didn't actually hear that until the 90s but i can place it in its historical context.

rock was already in exhaustion mode in the 80s. it refreshed itself by going back-- to rockabilly, to simpler rhythms, to pop blends like new wave, to extremes of speed and intensity of things already in existence-- or by blending with electronic music like devo-- but the era of great innovation and experimentation was over. it had to be.

on the other hand, it was a great era of innovation for all things techno. kraftwerk is a 70s band but they reach their apex in the 80s. joy division evolved into new order-- which maybe was a bit crap overall but had some great songs (we've had a thread about it already).

detroit techno developed in that era too-- there was this famous dj who'd play the whole of kraftwerk's autobahn over & over in his show-- there's a nice documentary about him on youtube-- and apparently he single-handedly inspired a whole bunch of 13 year old kids with such an act. (this is impossible in radio today unless you're talking college stations).

the 80s was also the era when hiphop exploded. i am no big expert so i'll let others talk of that. hiphop of course took a big bite off the "rock" market.

still in spite of the reduction/retreat/drive underground, the 80s gave us some great rock-- yes it wasn't part of the mainstream anymore but it was there in a pretty busy underground & college scene that yes, maybe it was not being exported that much, but it kept exploiting what could be exploited and you can look at it in retrospective without having to have lived there & then, just like you can get interested in bebop even if you weren't alive in the 50s.

love of the 90s is a bunch of nostalgia because it was the LAST youth movement for which rock was the soundtrack. in terms of innovation it brought practically nothing-- it was either the explosion of things that were being developed in the 80s (e.g. melvins --> nirvana, or sonic youth playing on the radio), or vestigial forms of arena rock, etc. things just got recycled in a nice package and then that was it. math rock brought back some treaks in prog rock. thinking fellers channeled zappa. mars volta did rush. there aren't really many more places to go in rock. the last frontier was noise-- after noise, all that's left is silence.

[ eta:80s- napalm death >>> metallica ]

rock is on its way to becoming a conservatory art like jazz or classical or tap dancing. some children now go to real-life "school of rock" where they learn to jump around on stage. the form will continue forever, as a tradition-- just like i like to listen to new orleans bands still playing "the sheik of araby" like it is the 1920s. but let's not expect that the great next musical revolution is going to come out of a geetarr and rock drums. actually i don't know what the fuck is going to happen and that's the funnest part of it all. morte, keep your ears open & don't calcify.

lolol my rant. i'm reading this and laughing.

==

ps- my favorite 90s band i mean the stuff i can listen to no problem and probably all day is stereolab. it does borrow elements from rock but is it even "rock"?

[Mortte Jousimo]

Originally Posted by Severian

I think the point of suggesting the book is not to inform you about the '80s itself, but to give you an idea of what many of us think about when we think of that decade. That is, the American indie underground, and what was happening in California, the Midwest, Seattle, Boston, NYC and DC in the clubs and basements, and how ideas were swapped back and forth between struggling U.S. Bands and their UK/Irish/Scottish counterparts.

Maybe this is a part of the '80s that you didn't experience first hand, because of geographic limitations... Of for whatever reason.

Well, I think we have been discussing about how the music in some decades have commonly been. If the focus will be in subcultures like that US indie of 80`s, I think it´s very hard to say any decades which is better. In nineties there were also lots of subcultures, for example in Finland punk/alternative scene was very active in the end of eighties/in the beginning of nineties and many great bands/records came. Also there was stoner after grunge (I really like Kyuss). Or do Evollove means Us 80 alternative was so great everyone should for that reason love eighties?

Yes, I didn´t really hear Minuteman or even Sonic Youth in the eighties in Finland. Finland wasn´t third world country or under the iron cross, it has always been western country, but still very far away of Us altarnative in those days. I think there were two radio channels, cable televison channels were about to come.

[Mortte Jousimo]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

living in a 3rd world dictatorship with government owned media i had almost no access to that scene or any music scene for that matter, only mostly pop shit, but when i came to the us in the 90s i connected to that current pretty soon-- i remember i had only 2 cassettes in my car-- one was evol the other was the VU. i couldn't afford to buy much but those were completely new to me in the 90s. i loved them.

i think it's unfair to show that video w/ the eurythmics cover of lou reed. i like annie lennox voice sometimes but eurythmics was horrible. conversely one could show devo's cover of satisfaction or siouxie's cover of dear prudence-- both great covers and for my taste an improvement on the original on some aspects. yes both covers are 70s things to be specific but both bands reached their height of popularity in the 80s. there were good popular bands like talking heads or b-52s or even REM (not my taste but hey deserve respect).

let's not forget that for all the good rock the 70s had to offer it also engendered atrocities like disco which may have had its gems but it was mostly empty boring shit--plastic drums and all manner of loops were used heavily then, and only appropriated by "new wave" pop-rock later.

i think it's nice morte likes geetar rock but in the 80s technology was exploding-- it could not romantically be avoided forever though, just like the prerafaelites couldn't stop the industrial revolutio by painting fairies.

rock itself was the product of technology-- without electric instruments it wouldnt' have existed--and dylan eventually got there in '65 to much controversy. similarly, electronics had to be embraced by popular music as the computer age took over. even 70s heros had to adapt or die.

ex-genesis peter gabriel (who lorded over the most pastoral era of the band before phil collins turned it into musical feces) ended up doing synthpop shit like his video with the dancing chicken. queen which proudly would stamp "made without synthesizers" in their 70s record covers ended up using them in the late 70s/early 80s and recording with bowie. yes after their late-70s collapse reformed by incorporating the "video killed the radio star" huy & put out one last good record. rockers that wanted to remain true to their history just got more bloated and irrelevant (hair bands) though they were still hugely popular. meanwhile someone like laurie anderson crossed from minimalism into popular music with a record like "big science." i love that record-- the ones that followed not so much. but it really sort of announced the territory the 80s had to conquer & experiment with. i didn't actually hear that until the 90s but i can place it in its historical context.

rock was already in exhaustion mode in the 80s. it refreshed itself by going back-- to rockabilly, to simpler rhythms, to pop blends like new wave, to extremes of speed and intensity of things already in existence-- or by blending with electronic music like devo-- but the era of great innovation and experimentation was over. it had to be.

on the other hand, it was a great era of innovation for all things techno. kraftwerk is a 70s band but they reach their apex in the 80s. joy division evolved into new order-- which maybe was a bit crap overall but had some great songs (we've had a thread about it already).

detroit techno developed in that era too-- there was this famous dj who'd play the whole of kraftwerk's autobahn over & over in his show-- there's a nice documentary about him on youtube-- and apparently he single-handedly inspired a whole bunch of 13 year old kids with such an act. (this is impossible in radio today unless you're talking college stations).

the 80s was also the era when hiphop exploded. i am no big expert so i'll let others talk of that. hiphop of course took a big bite off the "rock" market.

still in spite of the reduction/retreat/drive underground, the 80s gave us some great rock-- yes it wasn't part of the mainstream anymore but it was there in a pretty busy underground & college scene that yes, maybe it was not being exported that much, but it kept exploiting what could be exploited and you can look at it in retrospective without having to have lived there & then, just like you can get interested in bebop even if you weren't alive in the 50s.

love of the 90s is a bunch of nostalgia because it was the LAST youth movement for which rock was the soundtrack. in terms of innovation it brought practically nothing-- it was either the explosion of things that were being developed in the 80s (e.g. melvins --> nirvana, or sonic youth playing on the radio), or vestigial forms of arena rock, etc. things just got recycled in a nice package and then that was it. math rock brought back some treaks in prog rock. thinking fellers channeled zappa. mars volta did rush. there aren't really many more places to go in rock. the last frontier was noise-- after noise, all that's left is silence.

[ eta:80s- napalm death >>> metallica ]

rock is on its way to becoming a conservatory art like jazz or classical or tap dancing. some children now go to real-life "school of rock" where they learn to jump around on stage. the form will continue forever, as a tradition-- just like i like to listen to new orleans bands still playing "the sheik of araby" like it is the 1920s. but let's not expect that the great next musical revolution is going to come out of a geetarr and rock drums. actually i don't know what the fuck is going to happen and that's the funnest part of it all. morte, keep your ears open & don't calcify.

lolol my rant. i'm reading this and laughing.

==

ps- my favorite 90s band i mean the stuff i can listen to no problem and probably all day is stereolab. it does borrow elements from rock but is it even "rock"?

I mostly agree to you. I have been thinking Talking Heads, Siouxsie, Devo & B52`s are more of the seventies because they started then. Of course they made great records also in the eighties. And even I agree about progression in technology, I just hate that progression what came in the eighties when drummachines & synths replaced all the other instruments. I think that has came into better direction in the nineties & 2000`s. And one thing, Mars Volta came 2000. I am not really nineties lover, I have just said I think it was a little better time than eighties.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Mortte Jousimo

I mostly agree to you. I have been thinking Talking Heads, Siouxsie, Devo & B52`s are more of the seventies because they started then. Of course they made great records also in the eighties. And even I agree about progression in technology, I just hate that progression what came in the eighties when drummachines & synths replaced all the other instruments. I think that has came into better direction in the nineties & 2000`s. And one thing, Mars Volta came 2000. I am not really nineties lover, I have just said I think it was a little better time than eighties.

i don't think it was a better time per se-- i think you had a better time given the availability of music for you, but that's not an intrinsic quality of what was around back then. i mean you go from a top-40 prison to greater resources & global connectivity and access, and then later comes the internet which lets you see & hear anything-- well it sure looks better.

the late 90s were great for me too mainly due to napster which let me break out of jail free and let my tastes take me where they willed. but at the same time we had atrocities which were OF the time, like, say, kid rock, ha ha ha ha. i think even the eurythmics are going to beat kid rock if we choose them arbitrarily to "represent" each decade.

[Mortte Jousimo]

Tell me have I understood right: If the one is SY-fan, he has to automatically love the whole Us-underground of 80`s (also UK & near countries counterparties), otherwise he´s dumb?

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Mortte Jousimo

Tell me have I understood right: If the one is SY-fan, he has to automatically love the whole Us-underground of 80`s (also UK & near countries counterparties), otherwise he´s dumb?

 

i didn't call you dumb, did i?

i hate it when people put words in my mouth--unless you were talking to someone else.

 

[Severian]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

 

i didn't call you dumb, did i?

i hate it when people put words in my mouth--unless you were talking to someone else.

 

Mortte - Geez, man - I didn't call you dumb either! I was just trying to explain why Our Band Could Be Your Life was recommended to you.

Please stop acting like you're being attacked. No, of course it would be insane to say that anyone who didn't love 80's hardcore/punk/post-hardcore and indie music was "dumb."

Man, I'm too old to even use that word without making myself sound like a lobotomized asshole.

[evollove]

I used "dumb." And I didn't mean Mortte is dumb. Just his ideas.

But to make it up, I'm listening to:

Jefferson Airplane - Surrealistic Pillow (1967)

I thought this would be corny and outdated, and all the lyrics are pretty dippy, but just when I thought I was better than the album, tracks 4 and 5 floored me with their beauty. "Today" is especially magnificent, and would fit right in on the 3rd VU album.

1967 rules!

[Mortte Jousimo]

Severian, my comment wasn´t really to you, it was most to the Evollove as he seemed to regognise it. But you all seemed to think evollove reaction is totally ok. I honestly not has been very familiar with that US/UK scene and I really think most of the world´s music listeners are also not. If you asked them how they describe eighties, I think synthpop came into everyone´s mind more than Minutemen. Don´t you all see that you seem to have quite US/UK centered view of the world´s popular music? Yes, I know even I listen a lot UK/US music, but still...and I really think also Finnish alternative scene of the 90`s was really great, but really not think anyone else than Finnish people who where round when it happened know about it.

But maybe this subject is totally discussed...

About Surrealistic Pillow, I think it´s really one of the 1967 classics. Also really love the followers After Bathing at Baxter´s & Crown Of Creation. But in Surrealistic almost every song is very catchy.

This is my favourite from Bathing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4FtfZ1WuTA

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Mortte Jousimo

But maybe this subject is totally discussed...

 

yes please. just don't keep saying "everyone." uffff.

===

i'll have to listen to that jefferson airplane. i'm curious now. i know a few songs here/there but never paid a lot of attention to it. i probably should.

80s in my native wasteland had a very small & obscure punk-ish scene. mostly rich kids who'd travel out of the country & come back w/ fashions that were already old elsewhere. a couple of bands got semi-famous by ripping off iggy and agnostic front and changing the lyrics. i didn't find that out until many years later-- i thought they were awesome, but no, ha ha. lol rich punks.

==

i had THE TREME BRASS BAND for a breakast soundtrack. i've posted a picture of this album before. a rowdy bunch of very old men blowing horns and covering traditional standards with cracked voices. tubas and trombones are a great great great way to start the day.

[Mortte Jousimo]

Because Minutemen has mentioned many times here, I decided to check it out again (I have listened before few songs, I think one was "this ain´t no picnic" they sounded good, but nothing more so I decided not to listen more).

First I started with e.p. Project: Mersh and it didn´t sound anything special. I thought I will put nomeansno over this band anytime. Also I thought I really prefer the original Steppenwolf-piece lot more than their cover:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZDdsuvlIC8

But then I watched their history from wiki and noticed it is older band. So I decided to listen their first e.p. paranoid time, then the full album What makes man a start fire. And those sounded really great! Thanx guys, it always great to find new/old great albums!

BTW I think Nomeasno has been big fans of Minutemen.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by Mortte Jousimo

Severian, my comment wasn´t really to you, it was most to the Evollove as he seemed to regognise it. But you all seemed to think evollove reaction is totally ok. I honestly not has been very familiar with that US/UK scene and I really think most of the world´s music listeners are also not. If you asked them how they describe eighties, I think synthpop came into everyone´s mind more than Minutemen. Don´t you all see that you seem to have quite US/UK centered view of the world´s popular music? Yes, I know even I listen a lot UK/US music, but still...and I really think also Finnish alternative scene of the 90`s was really great, but really not think anyone else than Finnish people who where round when it happened know about it.

First off, I do not think it was Ok for evollove to say that what you said was dumb. I'm not going to glove-slap him and challenge him to a duel over it or anything. I think he re-canted what he said, and more or less made up for it... After some prompting from Symbols, who in case you didn't notice, pointed out that the comment was uncalled for almost immediately. Which was nice of him.

Second, yes, you're absolutely right. Most of us are into English speaking artists who either had an influence on, were influenced by, or were direct peers of Sonic Youth. It probably shouldn't come as a surprise. This is the official Sonic Youth website, after all.

Does that mean we only listen to English speaking, western artists? No. A lot of people here are pretty hot for Japanese noise, techno from all over the world, German sound collage/industrial shit, and Northern European drone.

But obviously we're all here because we like Sonic Youth. So we all probably are into a lot of the same shit. Maybe we should focus on the similarities instead of the differences? I dunno.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Severian

Maybe we should focus on the similarities instead of the differences? I dunno.

noooo! similarities bore-- differences enrich

nobody here is gonna try to listen to that 2nd line eh? i see how it is... :P

[Mortte Jousimo]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

noooo! similarities bore-- differences enrich

nobody here is gonna try to listen to that 2nd line eh? i see how it is... :P

I agree. But on the other hand...I am over forty years old, so I don´t believe my music taste is going to enlarge in any direction. But anyway when I found some years ago Ethiopian 60-70 music and Amadou & Mariam from Mali, I think my world become a little bit richer...

[Severian]

Originally Posted by Mortte Jousimo

Because Minutemen has mentioned many times here, I decided to check it out again (I have listened before few songs, I think one was "this ain´t no picnic" they sounded good, but nothing more so I decided not to listen more).

First I started with e.p. Project: Mersh and it didn´t sound anything special. I thought I will put nomeansno over this band anytime. Also I thought I really prefer the original Steppenwolf-piece lot more than their cover:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZDdsuvlIC8

But then I watched their history from wiki and noticed it is older band. So I decided to listen their first e.p. paranoid time, then the full album What makes man a start fire. And those sounded really great! Thanx guys, it always great to find new/old great albums!

BTW I think Nomeasno has been big fans of Minutemen.

Nomeansno and Minutemen definitely have some of the same influences and interests. Minutemen, to me, are the perfect hardcore band. More so even than Minor Threat or Hüsker Dü. They were really something sick and twisted and special, and they rocked like hell. I'm glad you liked what you heard.

But did you check out the Punch Line? Or Double Nickels on the Dime? The latter has always felt to me like he Highway 61 Revisited of hardcore, though I have NO fucking clue how I came to to make that comparison.

[Mortte Jousimo]

Originally Posted by Severian

Nomeansno and Minutemen definitely have some of the same influences and interests. Minutemen, to me, are the perfect hardcore band. More so even than Minor Threat or Hüsker Dü. They were really something sick and twisted and special, and they rocked like hell. I'm glad you liked what you heard.

But did you check out the Punch Line? Or Double Nickels on the Dime? The latter has always felt to me like he Highway 61 Revisited of hardcore, though I have NO fucking clue how I came to to make that comparison.

From my friends I borrowed Minor Threat and Husker Du-albums, I think it was late eighties or beginning of nineties, never really get into them, always liked Fugazi more although even that hasn´t been my favourite bands. Going to check those others, they´re unknown to me (I think I´ve heard the name Punch line).

Edit: Sorry, I thought you asked about the bands called Punch Line and double etc. Now noticed they´re Minutemen albums too : ). Yes, I already thought yesterday I am going to listen that first album too.