[Torn Curtain]

Originally Posted by sarramkrop

I was going to post something similar to this. I wonder about those who get into ''an experimental mindset'' in order to create. The act of creating something valuable surely involves some experimentation in order to get results, at least when done by a talented artist. I wouldn't call that a particularly conscious state, just something that is part of the different creative approaches. There are those who purposely create something experimental, thus contributing to the amount of garbage that litter the arts in general.

Yes, "experimental" musicians sometimes only care about the process and not the result, so then what's the point ?

[Everyneurotic]

Originally Posted by sarramkrop

People who I generally consider to be experimental are those who worked to push technology forward and often ended up making music that wasn't particularly meant to have any artistic merit per se.

People like your Raymond Scotts and all the electronic music people who worked for tv, radio, movies etc. The majority of these people are/were waged by whoever controls the national media in whichever country they live(d). Their job is to experiment with sound, visuals etc in order to develop new technologies. That to me is very experimental.

but it's contextual.

yeah, i see that you refer to the people inventing stuff, experimenting to get their desired result. but one can also use these inventions, previously experimented upon, to do something else in another context. (robert moog experiments with his synths to get what he's after, and then someone else can either use his example and build something new or maybe use a moog in an unconventional way for another purpose, this time musical).

Originally Posted by Torn Curtain

Yes, "experimental" musicians sometimes only care about the process and not the result, so then what's the point ?

again, contexts; there's people who experiment for the sake of experimentation and there's people that experiment with the intention of creating something objectively.

[afterthefact]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

Just make music that gets you off man, do not worry a bout "experimental" or "noise" or whatever. Just trust your ears. If you like and if it gets you hard and if it rocks you then it is good. if it bores you to tears and you start thinking, "oh man I have played the skree drone for three minutes, I bet it is really starting to sound good." then it is NOT sounding good and you need to STOP

I completely 100% agree with this. Just play waht you are best at doing and you are guarenteed (for the most part; I mean, you could suck, I don't know) to like it, because otherwise, in my opinion, trying to do something that isn't natural will just come off sounding forced.

Also, as a side note, just because you like a certain type of music doesn't always mean you have to play it. You may really like Sonic Youth, but if everything you play sounds like Peter Paul & Mary, than that's your style. You can fake SY all you like, and it may even sound good, but your musical soul won't get the full release it needs until you let yourself get down and dirty, pouring out whatever flows through your fingertips.






Now, to answer the question, it's all about mood for me. I like a room with no AC but the windows open (provided it's not too cold outside), maybe a fan going, and by all means, no artificial light. Has to be natural; has to be.

[Everyneurotic]

Originally Posted by afterthefact

I completely 100% agree with this. Just play waht you are best at doing and you are guarenteed (for the most part; I mean, you could suck, I don't know) to like it, because otherwise, in my opinion, trying to do something that isn't natural will just come off sounding forced.

Also, as a side note, just because you like a certain type of music doesn't always mean you have to play it. You may really like Sonic Youth, but if everything you play sounds like Peter Paul & Mary, than that's your style. You can fake SY all you like, and it may even sound good, but your musical soul won't get the full release it needs until you let yourself get down and dirty, pouring out whatever flows through your fingertips...

this is very stupid.

of course you can learn to play different styles of music. the only way someone would (in broad terms) like to sound like sonic youth and end up sounding like peter paul and mary is if said person doesn't know or like sy and only wants to try it to be cool and accepted.

Originally Posted by Everyneurotic

but it's contextual.

yeah, i see that you refer to the people inventing stuff, experimenting to get their desired result. but one can also use these inventions, previously experimented upon, to do something else in another context. (robert moog experiments with his synths to get what he's after, and then someone else can either use his example and build something new or maybe use a moog in an unconventional way for another purpose, this time musical).



again, contexts; there's people who experiment for the sake of experimentation and there's people that experiment with the intention of creating something objectively.

Of course the result of those experiments would have to be used to create something artistic, otherwise I wouldn't see the point of creating and mass-producing anything like a moog synthesizer in the first place.

I do agree with Torn Curtain that there are people who create within what they perceive as an artistic enviroment with a way too mathematical mind. This is not to say that an artist must be ignorant of what goes on technologically in their field at all, it's just that when it comes to create they need to be able to focus all the techniques that they've learnt into an emotional whole, coherent or not, otherwise their work will end up lacking soul.

[Everyneurotic]

Originally Posted by sarramkrop

Of course the result of those experiments would have to be used to create something artistic, otherwise I wouldn't see the point of creating and mass-producing anything like a moog synthesizer in the first place.

I do agree with Torn Curtain that there are people who create within what they percieve as an artistic enviroment with a way too mathematical mind. This is not to say that an artist must be ignorant of what goes on technologically in their field at all, it's just that when it comes to create they need to be able to focus all the techniques that they've learnt into an emotional whole, coherent or not, otherwise their work will end up lacking soul.

man, i couldn't agree more with this whole post.

[afterthefact]

Originally Posted by Everyneurotic

this is very stupid.

of course you can learn to play different styles of music. the only way someone would (in broad terms) like to sound like sonic youth and end up sounding like peter paul and mary is if said person doesn't know or like sy and only wants to try it to be cool and accepted.

You are very stupid.

I'm not saying you can't learn other styles of music. You can even sound good at it. I SAID THAT ALREADY. My point was that you get the greatest satisfaction from playing whatever is the most natural to you, so I feel that's what people should do.

[Everyneurotic]

if it was like you said, everybody who picked up a guitar would sound like nirvana or the ramones.

[afterthefact]

Originally Posted by Everyneurotic

if it was like you said, everybody who picked up a guitar would sound like nirvana or the ramones.

Well I didn't write a book about it, I just made a post about it. The difference being that obviously a lot is left out, like the fact that you do have to practice to get good.

I'm not sure why you feel to need to get so arguementative about it though. Are you actually saying that you aren't better playing the stuff that comes more naturally to you?

[Everyneurotic]

but what's natural to you?

if you asked me when i was 11, the natural thing was playing open chords but i hated folk music.

if you asked me when i was fifteen, the natural thing was playing power chords, riffs and crazy noises.

if you ask me now, the natural thing is not actually playing the guitar.


the thing is, what's natural is a direct corelation between your likes, tastes and influences and your ability.

if a guy is super into dream theater and that crap, then it's natural for him to gravitate towards that when approaching his instrument, but it doesn't mean it flows natural because you need to practice to get to play to that technical level.

and if someone was raised and loves sy but doesn't know how to approach the instrument to do alternate tunings and weird noise, then what's natural for him is in conflict with his ability. and if said person, after knowing how to channel the sy "technique" gets into, say, boris but still loves sy, it's not like he/she won't learn to play solos and riffs and still be able to do skronk.

i'm not sure if i'm agreeing or disagreeing with you but this is my point.

[afterthefact]

Originally Posted by Everyneurotic

but what's natural to you?

if you asked me when i was 11, the natural thing was playing open chords but i hated folk music.

if you asked me when i was fifteen, the natural thing was playing power chords, riffs and crazy noises.

if you ask me now, the natural thing is not actually playing the guitar.


the thing is, what's natural is a direct corelation between your likes, tastes and influences and your ability.

if a guy is super into dream theater and that crap, then it's natural for him to gravitate towards that when approaching his instrument, but it doesn't mean it flows natural because you need to practice to get to play to that technical level.

and if someone was raised and loves sy but doesn't know how to approach the instrument to do alternate tunings and weird noise, then what's natural for him is in conflict with his ability. and if said person, after knowing how to channel the sy "technique" gets into, say, boris but still loves sy, it's not like he/she won't learn to play solos and riffs and still be able to do skronk.

i'm not sure if i'm agreeing or disagreeing with you but this is my point.

I see what you are saying, and I do agree with you, but I think I'm talking more about a different kind of natural. I'm talking AFTER you have learned what you want and AFTER you can play like all of the bands you like, then finding what is natural to you. For instance, I like a lot of crazy experimental stuff and a lot of punk, and while those are somewhat noticable in what I play, my style tends to sound a lot like maybe a mix of Mogwai and Yo La Tengo, maybe. That's the best way I can describe it anyway. My point though is that I can play crazy experimental and/or punk all day long, and people may even think it sounds good, but I feel the greatest release when I play what comes natural to me.

[Everyneurotic]

that's in personal service, innit?

yes, now i see your point, and above all, i think i agree saying that if you don't feel good playing what you play, then don't fucking play it.

played.

i can figure out how to play covers really easily, but i would hate it if my only chances of playing would be with cover bands.

[Rob Instigator]

dream theater. ha!

[DeadDiscoDildo]

my dad loves dream theater and i love my dad, but sometimes when he listens to them all I hear are The Doors....


"father, yes son, I want to kill you"

haha


Oh, and you can't force creativity or experimentation....

just experiment and you'll get it brother

get it? fuck around, make noise, make really bad sounding noise that sounds like a 13 year old trying to play expressway to ur skull with his hand and not a slide...

until u figure out u need a slide. then you need a bow. then just throw your guitar

[Rob Instigator]

see, my thing is that I would love to play on stage, whether it is a cover band doing butthole surfers, dinosaur, police, smiths, cure, hendrix, etc. covers or frfonting my own band f original music. either one is better than sitting on my ass wondering where the next tasty rock is gonna come from.

[pbradley]

Originally Posted by fugazifan

i wholly disagree. if you dont know what you are doing, the deconstruction becomes meaningless. one should at leat know basic musical rules in order to at least know that what they are doing is right\wrong.
you you dont deconstruct then you cant reconstruct.

I know what I am doing. Its just that I refuse to learn the language of music. Maybe I've read too much Derrida (is any too much?) but my creative process is founded on personal discovery of the instrument. The language of music would only have that taken away.

Also "right/wrong"? Who's "right/wrong"? The audiences? The music community? You? I play what I like to hear, so I am right. I spend too much time learning about theory in my regular profession to allow it in my artistic endeavors.

[PAULYBEE2656]

if you need to believe you are in an experimental mind set to make experimental music, chances are is that youre not gonna make experimental music, just twaddle.....

experimentaition is a natural thing, you cant force it.

[PAULYBEE2656]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

....... either one is better than sitting on my ass wondering where the next tasty rock is gonna come from.

thats all i seem to be doing these days, i cant get any fuckin smoke anywhere at the moment, and havent done so in 6 weeks. ireland is shite for the brown or even the green at the moment....... bloody police raids!

[pbradley]

Originally Posted by RanaldoNecro

if you dont know what you are doing, the deconstruction becomes meaningless. one should at leat know basic musical rules in order to at least know that what they are doing is right\wrong.

Thats an agless debate. Obviously many will go for the 'no form' school of thought. I have read song structure is akin to a house. And song structure is the basic foundations or walls.....

Who says what I reconstruct is without structure? My songs are actually songs. verse-chorus-verse, maybe so variation on that but nothing radical. My older brother who is a studied guitar player said that one of my songs sounded like Temple of the Dog meets Sonic Youth. It isn't formless wank.

[pbradley]

Originally Posted by PAULYBEE2656

experimentaition is a natural thing, you cant force it.

Which is why I am trying to keep it as natural as I can. I have no aspirations to be a virtuoso guitarist or a composer, I just want to enjoy playing little weird things.