Michael Gira fans: thoughts on the Larkin Grimm accusations? - Page 2

dead_battery · 02.27.2016, 04:14 PM

btw, im not coming out on one side of the other.

a system where male courts and judges and patriarchy in general can silence and dismiss women is not good. niether is the opposite.

noone is happy about being a mortal sexuated being and we never will be

SuchFriendsAreDangerous · 02.27.2016, 04:41 PM

Look, she can be a total bitch, have had a consenting sexual relationship and still also have been raped. Gira admitted to sex. If she is lying, keeping his dick in his pants would have solved the problem. However, if she is not? Hence why the accusations are fair. After all, consenting adults have sex everyday, are having consenting sex right now, without any such rape accusations. So that any accusations are made at all to a degree warrants fair suspicion. Innocent until proven guilty doesn't negate reasonable suspicion either.

dead_battery · 02.27.2016, 04:59 PM

they aint fair because they aint true. zero reason to believe her and she did not go to the authorities and get dna evidence at the time. she waits until now, when there's no way to definitively prove it, to make the accusations. she's a fucking LIAR.

SuchFriendsAreDangerous · 02.27.2016, 05:02 PM

How do you know that? Why are their zero reasons to believe her exactly?

Again, people have sex everyday without being accused of rape, we then should take any accusations seriously until they are proven otherwise. Again innocent until proven guilty doesn't negate the reality of reasonable suspicion.

Severian · 02.27.2016, 05:03 PM

Woah. I didn't mean to align myself with what DB is saying. No offense, but I think you're being a little flippant and extreme about this. My first impulse was to share the article with some Swans fans, then I thought, "fuck this, no way this is true. I'd be messing things up for Gira by telling anyone else about this."

But then I thought that I almost had to bring it up somewhere. I really shouldn't be making any decisions or claims about innocence or truth. I shouldn't definitely not be pushing aside allegations of rape just because I happen to like the music that the accused person makes. That's why I posted it here. This board didn't talk about the Tracy Fuchs allegations... I wanted to bring it up but didn't, because it makes me uncomfortable as hell. I think we should probably be talking about this because it's out there now, for better or worse.

dead_battery · 02.27.2016, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

How do you know that? Why are their zero reasons to believe her exactly?

Again, people have sex everyday without being accused of rape, we then should take any accusations seriously until they are proven otherwise. Again innocent until proven guilty doesn't negate the reality of reasonable suspicion.

my reasons are already given.

SuchFriendsAreDangerous · 02.27.2016, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dead_battery

my reasons are already given.

Frankly those weren't very good at all.

dead_battery · 02.27.2016, 07:11 PM

you have no reasons to believe her since there is absolutely no way to possibly prove she isn't lying unless gira admitted it.

and she has no means to prove her claim.

and if it really happened she could have but didn't.

so are we supposed to accept her claim and let gira endlessly defend himself? bankrupt himself in court
or just pay her to stop talking about it?

hardly fair. read his wifes posts though.

goodnight.

SuchFriendsAreDangerous · 02.27.2016, 07:37 PM

The wife has yet to put forward any of these proofs she mentioned aside from an emotionally driven red herring falacy that because her own experience with sexual assault was more violent in nature that somehow what might have happened in this instance was not rape.

Further all you have doneis attack the character of the accuser and taken sides with the accused based entirely on the accused own testimony. And by the way, notice how the accused already changed his story once.

The point remains valid, that there even is an accusation in the first place warrants the suspicion. The accused hasn't put anything more convincing than the accuser has so far which again makes this a fair question.

SuchFriendsAreDangerous · 02.27.2016, 07:41 PM

If this comes down entirely to a judgment call, hey, call me old school but a sure sign of knowing that a sexual act wasn't mutually consenting is when one of the people accuses of rape. #JustSaying

Severian · 02.27.2016, 09:40 PM

I also think this "proof" Gira's wife is alluding to is strange. Yes, why mention that you have proof without saying what that proof is?

That's a technique US cops use to scare people into confessing to things they haven't done. If you've got proof of something, use it or don't talk about it.

Also, I'm sure I don't need to point out that there's no way to prove that something didn't happen. Even if the entire thing was on film, anf Grimm was saying, "please have sex with me right now," it wouldn't prove that Gira never raped Grimm. It wouldn't even prove that he didn't raper her that very night. "Rape" is a term that is in constant flux and evolution. In many cases, women who are legitimately raped don't realize that they've been raped until they've had time to process the event. Often victims struggle with the admission that something no right happened. Sometimes they give consent and later claim they gave it but didn't want to, which complicates things even more. The incident becomes "clearer" in the mind of the victim after time.

But therein lies part of the problem. Memory is malleable. Memory never gets better or more reliable as time passes. Throw in the fact that she was blind drunk and it get even stickier.

She mentions having had therapy in the months and years following the event. Well, as much respect as I have for the field of psychology as a scientific endeavor, the clinical branch of it is flawed beyond belief. This is a well established fact. Even the most ethical and professional therapist can alter their patients' thought and memories and beliefs, because no mater how well trained a clinician may be, s/he is still human, and still brings their biases into the session. Those biases are then projected onto the memory and perspective of the patient, and all objectivity is lost.

It's fucked up that this conversation has become so convoluted. It should be simple. In a perfect world, if a woman said she was raped, nobody would question her, because in a perfect world people would be sane, people would have picturesque memories, and nobody would lie. Actually in a perfect world rape wouldn't be a thing. But that's neither here not there.

It's not a perfect world though. I believe people should tread carefully around accusations of sexual assault and rape unless the incident can be verified, because it's just going to bring a lot of hate to the front door of both the accuser and the accused. This should be done in private. With lawyers present.

Facebook needs to go away forever. It's done nothing good for anyone but the folks who have the Social Network soundtrack. And Zuckerberg, I guess. Kill it. It needs to die.

SuchFriendsAreDangerous · 02.27.2016, 10:03 PM

Quote:

p.s. don't post yr shitty problems with someone on Facebook to start off with. slandering is just as bad as rape.

I know you didn't mean that exactly as you said it, or at least i hope you don't

Severian · 02.27.2016, 11:44 PM

Yeah, slander is not great by any means. But ... come on, now.

Severian · 02.28.2016, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pepper_green

posting yr loser complications on Facebook is a dead give away and giving away yr suck as business.

no one does that. she did accuse someone of rape.

I'm not sure if this was supposed to make me laugh, but it did.

Yr suck ass business. Ha!

SuchFriendsAreDangerous · 02.28.2016, 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pepper_green

I don't believe any or both of them!!!!

she's like a poison and drama. I agree with dead_battery.

rape is ugly but, I get a gist of female drama! I don't believe her. she's a crazy loser.

She can be a crazy loser and you can not believe her but she still could turn out to be right. Again the irony in this is folks here have attacked her and believed him for no reason other than just because. I will repeat it the last time, until truly proven otherwise the accusations are fair.

dead_battery · 02.28.2016, 06:21 AM

anyone else picture gira with a top hat, monocle and cane saying "I'M GONNA MAKE YOU A STAR, BABY!" top kek someone should make that into a meme

Toilet & Bowels · 02.28.2016, 06:37 AM

I guess people don't want to feel obligated to chuck out all their Swans records.

Genteel Death · 02.28.2016, 06:58 AM

dead_battery · 02.28.2016, 07:01 AM

dead_battery · 02.28.2016, 07:06 AM

02.27.2016, 04:14 PM	#21
dead_battery expwy. to yr skull Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,928	btw, im not coming out on one side of the other. a system where male courts and judges and patriarchy in general can silence and dismiss women is not good. niether is the opposite. noone is happy about being a mortal sexuated being and we never will be
	\|QUOTE AND REPLY\|

02.27.2016, 04:41 PM	#22
SuchFriendsAreDangerous invito al cielo Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: fucking Los Angeles Posts: 14,801	Look, she can be a total bitch, have had a consenting sexual relationship and still also have been raped. Gira admitted to sex. If she is lying, keeping his dick in his pants would have solved the problem. However, if she is not? Hence why the accusations are fair. After all, consenting adults have sex everyday, are having consenting sex right now, without any such rape accusations. So that any accusations are made at all to a degree warrants fair suspicion. Innocent until proven guilty doesn't negate reasonable suspicion either. __________________ Today Rap music is the Lakers
	\|QUOTE AND REPLY\|

02.27.2016, 04:59 PM	#23
dead_battery expwy. to yr skull Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,928	they aint fair because they aint true. zero reason to believe her and she did not go to the authorities and get dna evidence at the time. she waits until now, when there's no way to definitively prove it, to make the accusations. she's a fucking LIAR.
	\|QUOTE AND REPLY\|

02.27.2016, 05:02 PM	#24
SuchFriendsAreDangerous invito al cielo Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: fucking Los Angeles Posts: 14,801	How do you know that? Why are their zero reasons to believe her exactly? Again, people have sex everyday without being accused of rape, we then should take any accusations seriously until they are proven otherwise. Again innocent until proven guilty doesn't negate the reality of reasonable suspicion. __________________ Today Rap music is the Lakers
	\|QUOTE AND REPLY\|

02.27.2016, 05:03 PM	#25
Severian invito al cielo Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 11,746	Woah. I didn't mean to align myself with what DB is saying. No offense, but I think you're being a little flippant and extreme about this. My first impulse was to share the article with some Swans fans, then I thought, "fuck this, no way this is true. I'd be messing things up for Gira by telling anyone else about this." But then I thought that I almost had to bring it up somewhere. I really shouldn't be making any decisions or claims about innocence or truth. I shouldn't definitely not be pushing aside allegations of rape just because I happen to like the music that the accused person makes. That's why I posted it here. This board didn't talk about the Tracy Fuchs allegations... I wanted to bring it up but didn't, because it makes me uncomfortable as hell. I think we should probably be talking about this because it's out there now, for better or worse.
	\|QUOTE AND REPLY\|

02.27.2016, 07:11 PM	#28
dead_battery expwy. to yr skull Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,928	you have no reasons to believe her since there is absolutely no way to possibly prove she isn't lying unless gira admitted it. and she has no means to prove her claim. and if it really happened she could have but didn't. so are we supposed to accept her claim and let gira endlessly defend himself? bankrupt himself in court or just pay her to stop talking about it? hardly fair. read his wifes posts though. goodnight.
	\|QUOTE AND REPLY\|

02.27.2016, 07:37 PM	#29
SuchFriendsAreDangerous invito al cielo Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: fucking Los Angeles Posts: 14,801	The wife has yet to put forward any of these proofs she mentioned aside from an emotionally driven red herring falacy that because her own experience with sexual assault was more violent in nature that somehow what might have happened in this instance was not rape. Further all you have doneis attack the character of the accuser and taken sides with the accused based entirely on the accused own testimony. And by the way, notice how the accused already changed his story once. The point remains valid, that there even is an accusation in the first place warrants the suspicion. The accused hasn't put anything more convincing than the accuser has so far which again makes this a fair question. __________________ Today Rap music is the Lakers
	\|QUOTE AND REPLY\|

02.27.2016, 07:41 PM	#30
SuchFriendsAreDangerous invito al cielo Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: fucking Los Angeles Posts: 14,801	If this comes down entirely to a judgment call, hey, call me old school but a sure sign of knowing that a sexual act wasn't mutually consenting is when one of the people accuses of rape. #JustSaying __________________ Today Rap music is the Lakers
	\|QUOTE AND REPLY\|

02.27.2016, 09:40 PM	#31
Severian invito al cielo Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 11,746	I also think this "proof" Gira's wife is alluding to is strange. Yes, why mention that you have proof without saying what that proof is? That's a technique US cops use to scare people into confessing to things they haven't done. If you've got proof of something, use it or don't talk about it. Also, I'm sure I don't need to point out that there's no way to prove that something didn't happen. Even if the entire thing was on film, anf Grimm was saying, "please have sex with me right now," it wouldn't prove that Gira never raped Grimm. It wouldn't even prove that he didn't raper her that very night. "Rape" is a term that is in constant flux and evolution. In many cases, women who are legitimately raped don't realize that they've been raped until they've had time to process the event. Often victims struggle with the admission that something no right happened. Sometimes they give consent and later claim they gave it but didn't want to, which complicates things even more. The incident becomes "clearer" in the mind of the victim after time. But therein lies part of the problem. Memory is malleable. Memory never gets better or more reliable as time passes. Throw in the fact that she was blind drunk and it get even stickier. She mentions having had therapy in the months and years following the event. Well, as much respect as I have for the field of psychology as a scientific endeavor, the clinical branch of it is flawed beyond belief. This is a well established fact. Even the most ethical and professional therapist can alter their patients' thought and memories and beliefs, because no mater how well trained a clinician may be, s/he is still human, and still brings their biases into the session. Those biases are then projected onto the memory and perspective of the patient, and all objectivity is lost. It's fucked up that this conversation has become so convoluted. It should be simple. In a perfect world, if a woman said she was raped, nobody would question her, because in a perfect world people would be sane, people would have picturesque memories, and nobody would lie. Actually in a perfect world rape wouldn't be a thing. But that's neither here not there. It's not a perfect world though. I believe people should tread carefully around accusations of sexual assault and rape unless the incident can be verified, because it's just going to bring a lot of hate to the front door of both the accuser and the accused. This should be done in private. With lawyers present. Facebook needs to go away forever. It's done nothing good for anyone but the folks who have the Social Network soundtrack. And Zuckerberg, I guess. Kill it. It needs to die.
	\|QUOTE AND REPLY\|

02.27.2016, 11:44 PM	#33
Severian invito al cielo Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 11,746	Yeah, slander is not great by any means. But ... come on, now.
	\|QUOTE AND REPLY\|

02.28.2016, 06:21 AM	#36
dead_battery expwy. to yr skull Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,928	anyone else picture gira with a top hat, monocle and cane saying "I'M GONNA MAKE YOU A STAR, BABY!" top kek someone should make that into a meme
	\|QUOTE AND REPLY\|

02.28.2016, 06:37 AM	#37
Toilet & Bowels invito al cielo Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Northern Europe Posts: 12,273	I guess people don't want to feel obligated to chuck out all their Swans records.
	\|QUOTE AND REPLY\|

02.28.2016, 06:58 AM	#38
Genteel Death invito al cielo Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 8,744
	\|QUOTE AND REPLY\|

02.28.2016, 07:01 AM	#39
dead_battery expwy. to yr skull Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,928
	\|QUOTE AND REPLY\|

02.28.2016, 07:06 AM	#40
dead_battery expwy. to yr skull Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,928
	\|QUOTE AND REPLY\|