[the ikara cult]

Originally Posted by Glice

I think the problem I have is that, while he's a good critic of the left, I don't think he's a good critic from the left. Personally, while he may have been a firm critic of kneejerk leftisms, I think he fell into as many mindwrongs as the cosy (Graun) left does.

I quote the above to illustrate a point relating to yours - a lot of the anti-capitalist left (quietly) celebrated 9/11 as a deflation of vulgar capitalism; Hitchen celebrates it as a forbear to the dissolution of literalist cod-religion. Both positions are inadequate, to my mind (and of course, the problem with sublime acts is always their impossibility).

But he's a journo, a writer, not a philosopher - when he wrote provocative things, they're to be taken in that context. I don't think he's an amazing thinker but I think he was a necessary writer. And even so - that article Keep Poppin Pimples posted above is pretty vile, invidious and cheap. Not every writer shits gold, obvs.

para 1: I dont really understand what youre trying to say about his critique, you appear to be saying he wasnt sincerely leftish enough, and that he made the same mistakes as the Graun et al. I particularly dont get the second part, seeing as the messups of the Guardian (love it though i always will) were down to its moral equivocations, something Hitchens didnt really suffer from in my estimation

para 2:
If im not mistaken that quote is from one of his pieces soon after 9/11? If not he did say other things to that effect in others ive read.

In a weird way, i dont mind people celebrating the destruction of two buildings as symbols, thats why tall buildings and their mythologies exist, its the use of human life so deliberately that makes it the horrific event it is. Hitchens however has said he regarded the Salman Rushdie incident from 12 years before as a galvanising event, and you have to admit that when you see everything that you find offensive and repugnant placed in front of you, in full pornographic detail as 9/11 was, it should kinda remind you that whilst there are Republicans/Democrats/Labour/Tories there is something of a difference between those of us who want to slag each other off and those who want to blow each other up.

para 3: I dont think of him as a philosopher really, and his life experience isnt that awe inspiring, but he had a knack of noticing whose experiences were most relevant to the discourse and putting them on the page using his own style.

all those points are with reference to his politics by the way, not so much the religion or literature pieces.

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by the ikara cult

with hindsight i think the most damning thing about Galloway hasnt been his salute to Saddam hussein's "courage, strength and indefatigability", more when he went to Syria as a guest of the Assad regime telling them they were the last true Arab leaders, which given the events of the last year should put him in the doghouse for good.

I can't stand Galloway. He's got this reputation as a good debater but every time I've heard him, all he seemed capable of was shouting his opponent down with references to obscure and dubiously interpreted historical 'facts'. He seems more motivated by winning an argument than he is the credibility of what he's actually saying.

[MellySingsDoom]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

I can't stand Galloway. He's got this reputation as a good debater but every time I've heard him, all he seemed capable of was shouting his opponent down with references to obscure and dubiously interpreted historical 'facts'. He seems more motivated by winning an argument than he is the credibility of what he's actually saying.

He's also an unpleasant sectarianist - he played the "hate Rangers" card when he tried to get elected in Glasgow last year.

[the ikara cult]

I despise him too. But i do think he's a good debater, he has a very good judge of the mood of the audience. Thats why it took a hitchens to expose him.

[the ikara cult]

In the next ten years, when we have trade union members, democrats, feminists, secularists from Syria, lybia, Egypt, Lebanon (hopefully), Iran (hopefully) coming to this country talking about the decades of opression that Britain did nothing about, they will not be hailing Galloway.

[krastian]

Will miss him on Bill Maher.

[ilduclo]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

He was wrong about the war in Iraq but his real value (along with Cohen and Henri-Levi) was in questioning the Liberal-Left intelligentsia's all too easy opposition to it, and what the 'Left' might now mean as a consequence of the logic behind that opposition. Admittedly, Hitchens (along with Henri-Levi) could be a bit sensationalist in that critique but certainly a book like Cohen's 'What's Left?' asked some very poignant questions regarding the liberal ideology behind newspapers like the Guardian and broadcasters like the BBC. What's important is that none of them were attacking the Left in an effort to justify the actions and logic of the Right but were instead questioning (from their own Leftist standpoint) what they perceived as a liberal turn within a Left which they feel has betrayed a number of fundamental Leftist ideals in its knee jerk anti-Americanism as well as in its support (or more often refusal to criticise) any group (however reactionary or indeed ultra-Right wing) that also happens to share their anti-Americanism.

this liberal leftist (I'll leave off the intelligentsia part ) opposed the war and Hitches ideas about it for the following reasons

1) overwhelming civilian casualties from the gitty go. The first couple days they bunker busted that fallout shelter incinerating 400 and it never got any better after that. This is pretty much the pattern we see in modern warfare, so what's not to oppose?

2) the ethnic cleansing part that always follows the demise of a regime that sits on top of 3 + ethnicities/tribes/religions/wtf's --see Tito and Yugoslavia for just one (of many) instances.

Both of these sad tales are happening still. The bombings yesterday were both.

Hitchens was wrong. Bushco and Dick C and Rummy were wrong. Anyone who however briefly supported this shit is wrong, the entire coalition of the retarded (UK, Dansk, Polacks, who the fuck ever and however briefly they were part of that shit was wrong)

A great big happy holiday go fck yourself to whoever tries to intellectualize this into something right.