[Starcat]

Her solo stuff is more listenable... Teenage Jesus was made cool by being super-different at the time. But we've heard it all before at this point, which is why it won't resonate the same.

[Starcat]

Originally Posted by Pookie

Oh I see what you did there. As in "I'd like to take her up the aisle*".



*This is a double entendre. Take her up the aisle (as in a church aisle) sounds a bit like, "I'd like to have anal sex with her."

See also "I've got Brown Horrocks on my extension"

Also, anal sex is funny

[ann ashtray]

Dead Boys groupie turned awful musician turned aging bitchiness. Sonic Youth have quoted tons of people as an influence...never thought Lydia was anywhere near amongst the more interesting. Sure, her look (and her look alone) was, once upon a time, "sexy"...but sexy ain't rare and very seldom is it interesting.

Some of her photography is OK. But then again, it's easy to make anything look decent when most of it is black and white.

[Starcat]

Originally Posted by ann ashtray

Dead Boys groupie turned awful musician turned aging bitchiness. Sonic Youth have quoted tons of people as an influence...never thought Lydia was anywhere near amongst the more interesting. Sure, her look (and her look alone) was, once upon a time, "sexy"...but sexy ain't rare and very seldom is it interesting.

Some of her photography is OK. But then again, it's easy to make anything look decent when most of it is black and white.

Her appeal was in shock value, as it was with most No Wave... Looks were everything and she had a good one. It's a superficial reason to be important but it's a valid one for her circumstances.

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by Starcat

Her appeal was in shock value, as it was with most No Wave... Looks were everything and she had a good one. It's a superficial reason to be important but it's a valid one for her circumstances.

Looks/shock value definitely were not some of the more important aspects of No Wave, even though I'm not one ignorant enough to state they don't matter within the scheme of music...they do. It's 2012...I feel for anyone that currently still finds anything she did way back when "shocking". Not like she was doing stuff that hadn't been done already...even at that time. Iggy rolled around in glass, Stiv received head on stage...big deal. She was and is notorious for talking shit about anyone with any real artistic credibility (seriously, she was stupid enough to call Patti Smith a hippie).

Sure...if she wasn't physically attractive she likely never would have amounted to much, but why does that even matter? There are those with looks that still demonstrate talent...likewise, there are those without 'em that do too.

I always found Teenage Jesus to be the bottom of the barrel as far as no wave is concerned. James Chance + DNA for the win.

[Starcat]

Everybody's weird for weird's sake... If it wasn't for weird we would never have found out what cool was! It was and is a band-eat-band world and anything musicians and artists could do to get noticed they would do. SY did it and every other band that's big today did it. Weird sells, and there's nothing wrong with that.

And Teenage Jesus still approached music in an almost unexplored way... I don't think Lydia Lunch knows a single guitar chord to this day, and the fact that people ate it up then is evidence enough that it worked. DNA and James Chance definitely hold up better today, but Teenage Jesus was still a crucial piece of the way the scene developed, even if it was just for lyric-spittin' and shit-talkin'.

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by Murmer99

Maybe I'm ignorant, as I fail to see the importance of looks regarding music.

Also, it seems soulless to me to deliberately dress in a certain way for "shock value". Weird for the sake of weird never works for me.

When it comes to actual music...of course it shouldn't matter. I mean, David Thomas never had a "look", physically or in choice of garb, I found particularly interesting...however, that said, THAT FACT is one of the main reasons I always dug the guy...as a person. And of course, his music is absolutely amazing.

Another way of looking at it, however (for me personally...) is that I dig fashion. I like clothes and folks that know how to where them well. I enjoy looking at people I find attractive. When you can combine good music with a good look, this is never a bad thing. Also, I trust very few that claim to have no interest in fashion/etc. It's like the flannel clad grungy16 year old that says "I hate fashion". Or the leather jacket guy w/ the mohawk...clearly, they are victims to it as well. Likely they fall more victim to it than the guy that opts for just simple jeans and a tee shirt from whatever department store he enjoys shopping at. I don't know.

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by Starcat

Everybody's weird for weird's sake... If it wasn't for weird we would never have found out what cool was! It was and is a band-eat-band world and anything musicians and artists could do to get noticed they would do. SY did it and every other band that's big today did it. Weird sells, and there's nothing wrong with that.

And Teenage Jesus still approached music in an almost unexplored way... I don't think Lydia Lunch knows a single guitar chord to this day, and the fact that people ate it up then is evidence enough that it worked. DNA and James Chance definitely hold up better today, but Teenage Jesus was still a crucial piece of the way the scene developed, even if it was just for lyric-spittin' and shit-talkin'.

Not everyone is weird for weirds sake, unless you are looking at it from some philosophical angle that doesn't much apply to this discussion. Some people feel much more comfortable within the confines of "common", even if ya get into all that "yesterday's avant garde is tomorrow's pop" stuff. And weird will NEVER sell as much as common. Usually those that rip off the weird, polish it down to something bright and shiny most can swallow, go on to make more money than those that started whatever given approach. Think: Black Flag + Scratch Acid vs. Nirvana. Glenn Branca and Tom Verlaine vs. Sonic Youth. DNA vs. Blonde Redhead..etc/etc/etc.

And to say people "ate up" what Lydia was doing then is far fetched. Countless stories exist (by those that were there) that no wave wasn't this overly popular thing at the time it was going on. Clubs w/ maybe ten people, most of which would leave before the show was over kinda stuff. If anything, people dig that stuff more today than they did at the time it was going on. Those bands didn't last long...most went on to other at least semi formal approaches to music, many dropped off the face of the map. If they were doing well for themselves doing whatever it was they were doing, they would have stuck it out far longer than the few years it lasted. Also, minimal approached, weird approaches, to music existed LOOOOONG before Lydia hit the scene. No Wave, while interesting, was arguably a more adolescent approach to what say Terry Riley and Harry Partch and the like were already doing years prior. Of course, the adolescent vibes are what pulls a lot of younger people into it...many of which will eventually go on to bigger/better things. I honestly seldom listen to any of that stuff these days. I still Enjoy Glenn Branca at times...and all of James Chance's stuff has stuck near me. James really stuck out from the rest of those guys, however. So did Branca. It wasn't weird for weirds sake....it was honest art. It was folks w/ legitimate artistic ideas that wanted to explore them and felt sincere about what they were doing. I never felt Lydia was sincere about music...that said, I also always felt she was sincere about the way she hoped her audience would react toward her music. Esp. in those No Wave days. This was cool when I was a kid...however, as an adult, I find it boring. Nothing worse than a group of "pretty people" on stage trying to shock me via ageless antics.

It's important to remember "lyric spitting and shit talking" existed loooooong before Lydia Lunch. Check" The Deviants/Stooges/Electric Eels/PUNK ROCK (who Lydia was NOT a founder of) yadda yadda yadda.

[Starcat]

Originally Posted by ann ashtray

Not everyone is weird for weirds sake, unless you are looking at it from some philosophical angle that doesn't much apply to this discussion. Some people feel much more comfortable within the confines of "common", even if ya get into all that "yesterday's avant garde is tomorrow's pop" stuff. And weird will NEVER sell as much as common. Usually those that rip off the weird, polish it down to something bright and shiny most can swallow, go on to make more money than those that started whatever given approach. Think: Black Flag + Scratch Acid vs. Nirvana. Glenn Branca and Tom Verlaine vs. Sonic Youth. DNA vs. Blonde Redhead..etc/etc/etc.

And to say people "ate up" what Lydia was doing then is far fetched. Countless stories exist (by those that were there) that no wave wasn't this overly popular thing at the time it was going on. Clubs w/ maybe ten people, most of which would leave before the show was over kinda stuff. If anything, people dig that stuff more today than they did at the time it was going on. Those bands didn't last long...most went on to other at least semi formal approaches to music, many dropped off the face of the map. If they were doing well for themselves doing whatever it was they were doing, they would have stuck it out far longer than the few years it lasted. Also, minimal approached, weird approaches, to music existed LOOOOONG before Lydia hit the scene. No Wave, while interesting, was arguably a more adolescent approach to what say Terry Riley and Harry Partch and the like were already doing years prior. Of course, the adolescent vibes are what pulls a lot of younger people into it...many of which will eventually go on to bigger/better things. I honestly seldom listen to any of that stuff these days. I still Enjoy Glenn Branca at times...and all of James Chance's stuff has stuck near me. James really stuck out from the rest of those guys, however. So did Branca. It wasn't weird for weirds sake....it was honest art. It was folks w/ legitimate artistic ideas that wanted to explore them and felt sincere about what they were doing. I never felt Lydia was sincere about music...that said, I also always felt she was sincere about the way she hoped her audience would react toward her music. Esp. in those No Wave days. This was cool when I was a kid...however, as an adult, I find it boring. Nothing worse than a group of "pretty people" on stage trying to shock me via ageless antics.

It's important to remember "lyric spitting and shit talking" existed loooooong before Lydia Lunch. Check" The Deviants/Stooges/Electric Eels/PUNK ROCK (who Lydia was NOT a founder of) yadda yadda yadda.

I quite like what you said about people polishing down weird bands to make them successful... What I meant by saying that people ate Lydia up was that people into No Wave at the time elevated her to one of the big players. Not even James Chance, who as you said had the most listenable style, became as "successful" as the people who polished up his style and represented it as pop music. Lydia Lunch wasn't revolutionizing music, wasn't creating a successful band or one that's listenable today, but for her time and place she WAS important and influential. And that's enough for her to earn my respect.

[Genteel Death]

I much prefer Teenage Jesus and the Jerks to James Chance myself, whose records I can't work out how they got this far into the game of being appreciated other than because of the time and place they first made an appearance in a particular time and place of music-making. In saying that, I agree with SC that Lydia Lunch and TJatJ are vastly overrated. I love me a band that throws atonal ''hooks'' all over the place but I never thought they were good at that. I still can't help myself respecting her though.

[Pookie]

I was going to comment here but ann ashtray has said it all so well I won't bother.

[Nefeli]

i want her disneyland sweater.

[Genteel Death]

I must have a seriously ambiguous sense of judgement when it comes to rating ''great'' bands because I feel that personalities and egos in music very rarely live up to what they promise. I was thinking about this regarding Michael Gira, recently, and how his antics kind of annoy me after all, even though I consider Swans to be a band I love without a doubt. Their earliest records tend to be patchy and sound mostly terrible. Maybe they got the reputation because of live performances? I can't say the same about SY, who seem to have shelved the whole notion that to be assertive you necessarily need to look the part.

[Starcat]

Originally Posted by Nefeli

i want her disneyland sweater.

WOAHwhat? picture?

[Starcat]

I like it when a band is made good by its music as much as its style. Lots of musically talented bands have gimmicks that make them interesting to look at well as listen to. SY used their artistic background and stage presence and even Kim and Thurston's marriage very effectively to create drama and intrigue. But it was only because their music was so good that people cared enough to become opinionated about them and their image.

[Genteel Death]

Originally Posted by Starcat

I like it when a band is made good by its music as much as its style. Lots of musically talented bands have gimmicks that make them interesting to look at well as listen to. SY used their artistic background and stage presence and even Kim and Thurston's marriage very effectively to create drama and intrigue. But it was only because their music was so good that people cared enough to become opinionated about them and their image.

Spot on.

[Genteel Death]

Originally Posted by Starcat

WOAHwhat? picture?

Ungrateful bitch!

[Starcat]

Originally Posted by Genteel Death

Ungrateful bitch!

whome? I didn't do nuffin

[Genteel Death]

Originally Posted by Starcat

whome? I didn't do nuffin

http://www.sonicyouth.com/gossip/sho...postcount=1760

[Starcat]

Originally Posted by Genteel Death

http://www.sonicyouth.com/gossip/sho...postcount=1760

oword? thank you SO MUCH, Genteel Death, for posting that picture! May a hoard of eager sexual partners find their way to your private parts by day's end!