[demonrail666]

And if there's one thing I'm convinced of, it's that southerners hate blacks a lot less than they love money.

[ThePits]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

And if there's one thing I'm convinced of, it's that southerners hate blacks a lot less than they love money.

I thought they loved their relatives most..........

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by ThePits

I thought they loved their relatives most..........

No, that's the Welsh I think.

[val-holla-ing]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

And if there's one thing I'm convinced of, it's that southerners hate blacks a lot less than they love money.

that rings pretty true.

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by ThePits

What is surprising is the willingness of young black males to use guns as opposed to the unwillingness of young white males, its frighteningly disproportionate

The current thinking is that its related to a gun culture in Jamaica that has been importing its values to the community here for many years

Yes, that was a constant thing in the news, the whole Yardie thing. It's being replaced in the media now with the whole knife thing, especially it seems, at least in the part of London i'm from, amongst Bangladeshi kids - but which is now spreading into white gangs.

That said, I remember as a kid in the seventies gangs of white kids wandering around with Stanley knives. But that was mainly a football hooligan thing - which has traditionally been almost exclusively white.

[ThePits]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

Yes, that was a constant thing in the news, the whole Yardie thing. It's being replaced in the media now with the whole knife thing, especially it seems, at least in the part of London i'm from, amongst Bangladeshi kids - but which is now spreading into white gangs.

That said, I remember as a kid in the seventies gangs of white kids wandering around with Stanley knives. But that was mainly a football hooligan thing - which has traditionally been almost exclusively white.

Yeah that was the old ICF with the stanley blades, funny thing was they ended up opening a club in Bow called Echoes

From football hooligans to club promoters in one easy step

I think each generation has some form of violence problem, its just the latest one is claiming more lives than any before it

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

As for Blacks being detested by the British on arriving, this is again false in the extremity of the word 'detested'. Yes, there were riots in Notting Hill in the late 50s, and very small pockets of unrest elsehere, but the most common experiences of blacks in britain at that time was that they were treated with suspicion and ultimately as second class citizens.

??? i dont understand how you just proved me wrong here, by supporting exactly what I said with evidence such as uprisings and discrimination....

Originally Posted by thePits

Citizenship wasn't given to keep people as colonies, it was done on an appeal for immigrants from consecutive governments

Britain was attempting to preserve its Empire, it did not really need workers from its colonies, I did not make this up. It is from EP Thompson, Lydia Lindsey, Peter Thorsheim, Gareth Jones, Miles Ogborn...... you sir, are naive and even oblivious if you believe that Britain was only trying to 'appeal for immigrants' in the British Nationality Act of 1948.... Imperialism is imperialism, particularly in recovery from war. if they wanted immigrants so bad why did they treat them like shit?

Originally Posted by demonrail666

.. that the industry is somehow motivated by a desire to see the end of the black race. It's a finance driven industry, and money has no real agenda beyond the making of more money. I also have no doubt that were Black people in a better position to enter into the arms trade at this manufacturing level, rather than as consumers, they would.

that wasn't my point at all. you also overemphasised manufacturing and forgot about distribution (ie, how such produced firearms end up in peoples hands to begin with)

[demonrail666]

I wasn't trying to prove you wrong, just that the word 'detested' was a bit harsh to describe people's attitudes to post-War immigrants.

As much as I respect a historian like EP Thompson, his attitude towards the Government and Empire is famously - although not at times unreasonably - hostile. Commonwealth members had the right to become permanent British citizens until 1962, a point where most of the Empire had ceased. The period between 1962 and 1972 (when increased restrictions were introduced) was dominated bythe 90,000 Gurjurati Indians expelled from Uganda by Idi Amin.

The period between 1945 and 62 was a period when no restrictions applied for commonwealth citizens to enter Britain. The problem was that most simply didn't want to leave their homes for cold, foggy London. The years immediately following the War saw Britain employing ex German and Italian POWs to help counter the labour shortage, but when this proved insufficient, they looked towards commonwealth countries like Jamaica to work primarilly in the postal and transport system.

Historians will forever argue about the real causes, effects and attitudes towards immigration in Britain at this time. Certainly it was a complex, messy affair but not the period of Empire maintenance you portray. If anything, Britains political landscape in the postwar years up to the 70s (if we conveniently forget the Suez crisis) was immensely oriented towards domestic issues and remains one of the most progressive phases in its history. Of course, a statement like that is itself massively open to debate.

Re Arms distribution: I'm not sure about the obviously unofficial channels of arms distribution that help fuel street crime. Again, I believe that a vast majority of those heading this trade are white, but also continue to believe that, if given the opportunity, blacks would happily replace them, and sell their arms on to the exact same people.

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by ThePits

Yeah that was the old ICF with the stanley blades, funny thing was they ended up opening a club in Bow called Echoes

From football hooligans to club promoters in one easy step

Ha Ha, great memories of Echoes back in the day. I was brought up in the West Ham area, so the whole ICF thing was massive when I was a kid and it was definitely a bit weird sharing a bottle of water and a cheeky half with a bloke that a few years before would've been causing mayhem down at Upton Park. Happy days.

[ThePits]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

??? i dont understand how you just proved me wrong here, by supporting exactly what I said with evidence such as uprisings and discrimination....




Britain was attempting to preserve its Empire, it did not really need workers from its colonies, I did not make this up. It is from EP Thompson, Lydia Lindsey, Peter Thorsheim, Gareth Jones, Miles Ogborn...... you sir, are naive and even oblivious if you believe that Britain was only trying to 'appeal for immigrants' in the British Nationality Act of 1948.... Imperialism is imperialism, particularly in recovery from war. if they wanted immigrants so bad why did they treat them like shit?



that wasn't my point at all. you also overemphasised manufacturing and forgot about distribution (ie, how such produced firearms end up in peoples hands to begin with)

Uprisings and discrimination?

What you class as an uprising was nothing more than what would pass for a bloody big punch up in the USA

As for the discrimination, inexcusable but minor compared to what was going on in the USA

As for preserving our "empire" when the appeals went out for people to come here it was already consigned to history

We didnt need immigrants?

Are you completely bloody stupid???

After two world wars we lost entire generations of men, not counting the women and children killed in the bombing raids on the UK

We had bombed out buildings in London and craters up to and including the 1960's

Why?

Because we didnt have the people to rebuild the country

Are you aware that we still had some food rationing here until 1953?

As for me being naive, I would rather be naive than have the blinkered, bigotted, jaded view of everything that doesnt fit into your card playing mentality

Your view is as racist as the discrimination you purport to "expose"

The sooner you leave a country you so obviously despise for Haile Sellassis paradise of Ethiopia, the better

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by ThePits

Uprisings and discrimination?

What you class as an uprising was nothing more than what would pass for a bloody big punch up in the USA

As for the discrimination, inexcusable but minor compared to what was going on in the USA

so something morally wrong is acceptable in comparison to something that is morally worse? discrimination is discrimination, imperialism is imperialism..

the difference between you and I is that you seem to give into the bullshit from the place you live, where as I am not attached to any place in particular (no, not even Ethiopia, I can speak hours more on the socio-political troubles of Ethiopia then on Britain or the US) and just call it as I see it. LA sucks, the US sucks, Britain sucks, the EU sucks, Israelis suck, the Federal Democratic Republic of Ethiopia sucks, they all suck man, I just can openly accept and admitt that there is no place in the world that does not "suck" politically and historically and hence do not suffer from an idealistic approach to intepreting past-present connections.

[demonrail666]

You're right that discrimination in any form is bad, but compared with any other country I've visited, I'd happily say that Britain has managed to accomodate the various waves of post-war immigration in a way that a number of its neighbours would do well to copy. Britain is far from perfect in this respect, but then immigration will never give rise to a perfect scenario. It's all about coping and when you consider that most immigrants move to areas that are already quite poor, I'm quite proud of the way in which those British people already living in these areas have generally accepted the situation.

Saying that, this may well change as the forces of political correctness squash any white-led discussion of immigration with often petty claims of rascism. Recent parliamentary successes by far right parties such as the BNP are, in my opinion, a direct response not to increases in Britain's immigrant population, but to what has effectively become an unofficial taboo on the discussion of race issues by the more mainstream parties.

[ThePits]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

so something morally wrong is acceptable in comparison to something that is morally worse? discrimination is discrimination, imperialism is imperialism..

the difference between you and I is that you seem to give into the bullshit from the place you live, where as I am not attached to any place in particular (no, not even Ethiopia, I can speak hours more on the socio-political troubles of Ethiopia then on Britain or the US) and just call it as I see it. LA sucks, the US sucks, Britain sucks, the EU sucks, Israelis suck, the Federal Democratic Republic of Ethiopia sucks, they all suck man, I just can openly accept and admitt that there is no place in the world that does not "suck" politically and historically and hence do not suffer from an idealistic approach to intepreting past-present connections.

No, your problem is you are a one trick, or should I say one card, pony

You allude to everything as being the fault of the "whites"

Hints at some conspiracy within the arms industry in the USA to supply "blacks" with enough illegal firearms to kill themselves with

Well that kinda backfired given that as much as "blacks" kill "blacks" with said guns, as many "whites" kill "whites" with the same guns from the same manufacturers

Lets not forget 85% of said guns were acquired illegally

Everything you come out with has a tendency to come back to what you perceive as discrimination

Well the bad news is, it doesnt

I'd also have more respect for your views if you actually included all discrimination such as that in Rwanda where 900,000 people were murdered because one tribe discriminated against the other

Or maybe Zimbabwe, where Hottentots and Shangaans have been systematically wiped out in a deliberate government policy of genocide

Silly me, of course you wont jump up and down about these examples

They were committed by "blacks"

Although I daresay in your twisted logic somehow the "whites" will be to blame

The crap things that happen in this world are usually just down to the plain and simple fact that the perpetrators are assholes

Not because of discrimination

And sorry to dissillusion you again but not all assholes are white

If all the countries you mentioned suck so badly, might I suggest you move to the Arctic

I am sure there is an igloo with your name on

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by ThePits

Everything you come out with has a tendency to come back to what you perceive as discrimination

Well the bad news is, it doesnt

I'd also have more respect for your views if you actually included all discrimination such as that in Rwanda where 900,000 people were murdered because one tribe discriminated against the other

Or maybe Zimbabwe, where Hottentots and Shangaans have been systematically wiped out in a deliberate government policy of genocide

Silly me, of course you wont jump up and down about these examples

They were committed by "blacks"

Although I daresay in your twisted logic somehow the "whites" will be to blame

its not my twisted logic, the problems in Africa, particularly these ethnic conflicts, are often (as in Rwanda) DIRECTLY RELATED TO EUROPEAN COLONIALISM, specifically the arbitrary division of African borders and the imaginary nations they created with out regard of the people who lived there. In Rwanda it was exclusively the BRITISH who created racism between so-called Hutu and Tutsi, a division which NEVER existed prior to the 1930s, which was formalized in government in the 1950s (again by the Brits);

and zimbabwe, shit I dont think i even need to begin on the problems that Europe created for Zimbabwe, but I am affraid I might offend your sensibilites as good brit, you savage bastard. get over yourself, Britain sucks, america sucks and together they have destroyed the world as it should have been, and replaced it with a hell created in their image. sorry, i just must be the last honest white person out there who looks at things as they are, and not as we would like them to be.

[Tokolosh]

Let's not justify Mugabe's actions in the last couple of years by blaming Cecil John Rhodes and his buddies.
He uses that same poor excuse to drive "white" farmers off their land and bring Zim's economy to a standstill.
He's a serious cunt, and no one can deny that.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

sorry, i just must be the last honest white person out there who looks at things as they are, and not as we would like them to be.

There's a significant difference between looking at things 'as they are', and reducing complex issues to simple, for want of a better term, black and white ones. I'd be the first to condemn Europe's handling of Africa and certainly believe that white rascism remains a problem throughout the world. But equally, we can't reduce all of the world's problems to the status of modern day symptoms of historical white supremacy. It's a cul de sac that leads only to a blinkered understanding of the world today, and to calls for racial seperatism from both sides.

The problem is power in all of its myriad forms: be it in the hands of blacks, whites, whoever. Whites have throughout much of history wielded more power than blacks - leading to the opression of the latter. But so the same can be said of men over women, the bourgeoisie over the proletariat, and so on. We need to look into overall structures of power before looking at single instances of its misuse - examples of which can be found in all communities, be they white, black, male, female, straight, gay, etc.

[Rob Instigator]

cash rules everything around me

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

But equally, we can't reduce all of the world's problems to the status of modern day symptoms of historical white supremacy. It's a cul de sac that leads only to a blinkered understanding of the world today, and to calls for racial seperatism from both sides.

We need to look into overall structures of power before looking at single instances of its misuse - examples of which can be found in all communities, be they white, black, male, female, straight, gay, etc.

a) its not white against black, it seems to be rich white male vs everybody else.

b) this is not quite as simplistic as I am allowed to say it for time. Besides, Einstein said nothing is worthing discussing if it cant be explained to a bar maid at a night out...that is why I simplified,

c) its not there are not other issues, it is just that we haven't quite solved this one. just as we need to look at all structures, we must not overlook the most impacting and long lasting ones. According to the longue duree, racism is perhaps the most impacting concept in history, and the most directly involved in our present society.

d) I keep pulling 'this card' because it seems relevent every time since it is challenged to begin with, which implies a lack of resolution.

[HaydenAsche]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

cash rules everything around me

CREAM, get the money, dolla dolla bill y'all.

[atari 2600]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

There's a significant difference between looking at things 'as they are', and reducing complex issues to simple, for want of a better term, black and white ones. I'd be the first to condemn Europe's handling of Africa and certainly believe that white rascism remains a problem throughout the world. But equally, we can't reduce all of the world's problems to the status of modern day symptoms of historical white supremacy. It's a cul de sac that leads only to a blinkered understanding of the world today, and to calls for racial seperatism from both sides.

There's no denying that Africa has historically been plundered for its resources, consequences be damned. It's a really sad saga and it just goes to show the sad state we're in as human beings. And that goes for the powerful that create the pillage and the drones that sit back and support it as long as they aren't affected. Now please forgive my foray into Jungian psychology, but here it goes. Important to realize is that it's only when the manipulators of public opinion add commercial and economic pressure and/or acts of violence to their activities do they achieve a temporary success. What happens in actuality is that this merely causes a repression of the geniune unconscious reactions. And mass repression leads to the same result as individual repression...mental illness; all such attempts to repress the actions of the unconscious must fail in the long run, for they are basically opposed to our truest instincts.

Originally Posted by demonrail666

The problem is power in all of its myriad forms: be it in the hands of blacks, whites, whoever. Whites have throughout much of history wielded more power than blacks - leading to the opression of the latter. But so the same can be said of men over women, the bourgeoisie over the proletariat, and so on. We need to look into overall structures of power before looking at single instances of its misuse - examples of which can be found in all communities, be they white, black, male, female, straight, gay, etc.

That's extremely nicely put, demonrail666.
http://www.sonicyouth.com/gossip/sho...&postcount=358

The human problem, in general, is the psyche's obedience to its master, which is fear. Instinctual fear is one thing. It helps keep us alive in accordance with natural selection and natural law itself. Instinctual fear cuts right through our bullshit filter.

The type of fear we are in as humans is a different type of fear, a self-created, sinister type of fear and confusion. In Kierkegaardian terms, it's dread, "the sickness unto death." It's a deep psychological pit by which we create a programmed personality mask, or ego, that serves to actually deny our own fears, and ultimately serves as a shield to protect us from pondering our own fear of death. It is in the acceptance of fear of death, and then the approaching of the acceptance of death itself, that the process of individuation and ego integrity begins. The self is in tune with the unconscious; unfortunately, we are rarely in tune with the self. Such is the root of the world's strife on every level, because only connections with the self can ward off the self-sabotaging control that envy, jealousy, greed, anger, depression, anxiety and insecurity have on our ailing minds and the unnecessary harmful, violent behaviors that result. But instead, we persist headstrong in our error, and on a path of neurotic dissociation towards psychological illness. We allow the filter of the ego to endlessly split everything into more and more categories, we build more and more fences, more mental walls, more separations. We attach ourselves to our cultural hero systems and its corresponding institutions to erect edifices of symbolic psychological meaning. Our minds become false constructs, and we undercut ourselves willingly, and with great pleasure, because it keeps us from having to really deal with the fear of death.

Now I do feel I have some talents, that I have a good level of educatedness, and most of all I feel I have a gift of a good memory and a sense of order to my thoughts, thoughts that I can slow down fairly well at times.
But, even so, I only have a slight smidgen of ego integrity. All of my life's sufferings have awarded me a little tidbit of wisdom and have made me, like Socrates, a little less ignorant, but it doesn't amount to too much unless it's seen all the way through and thoroughly cultivated. And so, like everyone, I have my personality ticks, my shortcomings and my faults, and I am usually controlled by my fear on some level when I analyze my behavior as objectively as possible.

One of my faults is that I expect anyone to regard this as anything more than "psychobabble."