[Rob Instigator]

This all happened before the digital age. The Mamas and Papas put out three full albums in under 13 months once.
Most bands released singles every 3 months to stay in the youth's minds. Only when the album format became a bigger thing did bands start taking 2 years to release 12-14 songs. Releases were not important before then, and they are not important now. They're being important was a side-effect of the old album/record label mentality, where they would release things to shore up their fiscal year bottom line.

artists draw/paint/sculpt whatever and show it whenever. writers write constantly and publsh whenever possible.

Musicians who make lots of music should release as much as they want, anytime they want. They MIght Be Giants would do a free song a day via their dial-a-song, a free NEW song each day for years.....

what I am getting at is that there is no centralized way to receive music anymore, o trying to build up fake hype for releases does not work.

[noisereductions]

I don't disagree Rob. I think it's more that I'm no longer wired to consume as much music as I used to. It feels harder for me to feel "current" I guess.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

rob, while record releases were in part a choreographed record company strategy BUT the fact remains that selling albums makes artists less $ now than ever, and again, in rap touring and merchandising aren't as profitable so rappers have to release more product to keep financially afloat. it is definitely new for RAP to have so many releases. it started with the "mix tape" thing in late 90s but has been especially amplified by the decline of MTV and radio and rise of streaming.

im not a fan of record labels, but rappers in particular were largely only able to make their money through record company strategies

[Severian]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

rob, while record releases were in part a choreographed record company strategy BUT the fact remains that selling albums makes artists less $ now than ever, and again, in rap touring and merchandising aren't as profitable so rappers have to release more product to keep financially afloat. it is definitely new for RAP to have so many releases. it started with the "mix tape" thing in late 90s but has been especially amplified by the decline of MTV and radio and rise of streaming.

im not a fan of record labels, but rappers in particular were largely only able to make their money through record company strategies

I agree.

Also, it's kind of like Christmas. Yes, it's a massive marketing campaign, and yes that's objectively lame as hell, but people have attached meaning to it over the years, and now there's a large (if rapidly shrinking) portion of the population that really loves the whole Xmas thing, just as there's a large (of rapidly declining) portion of the population who appreciates physical releases, album art, collecting, etc.

I'm with NR though. I don't necessarily want to wait 2-3 years between albums from my favorite artists, but I also don't want those artists to release every single thing they record. I think 1 album every 12 months is fairly ideal.

[Rob Instigator]

Hip Hop is a different beast though. If you do not record and release your shit right away someone will come down the line and use the dope beat you thought you had all to yourself and then your tracks sound like shit.

It is all different now. a record like Travis Scotts "Birds in Trap sing McKnight" goes to the top of the sales charts by selling 80,000 in one week. That is not enough money to recoup the expenses incurred in recording, production, mastering, samples licensed, merchandise, advertising etc.... Bands used ot have to tour 6-8 months out of the year to make money too. Only the acts with huge record sales actually made money off the sales themselves...

If your audience has a short attention span you need to keep your name out there and your music out there.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

Hip Hop is a different beast though. If you do not record and release your shit right away someone will come down the line and use the dope beat you thought you had all to yourself and then your tracks sound like shit.

It is all different now. a record like Travis Scotts "Birds in Trap sing McKnight" goes to the top of the sales charts by selling 80,000 in one week. That is not enough money to recoup the expenses incurred in recording, production, mastering, samples licensed, merchandise, advertising etc.... Bands used ot have to tour 6-8 months out of the year to make money too. Only the acts with huge record sales actually made money off the sales themselves...

If your audience has a short attention span you need to keep your name out there and your music out there.

Yeah, this is why tickets for mid to high profile hip-hop shows these days are so expensive, and probably why the costs of "biggest of the biggest" shows are unbelievable.

Drake and Future's Summer Sixteen tour was ridiculous. Kanye West (all by himself, though I've heard rumblings that Tyler or Chance might open for the last leg) was also really fucking expensive, but at least folks could get in the door with nosebleed seats for $50. The good seats were off the charts. I went with a pair that were as close to the middle as I could manage without sacrificing a good view, and it was still the most money I've ever spent on a single show.

Also, Travis $cott may have had a No.1 album, but only for a minute. He'll definitely have to tour like crazy and probably do a bunch of features to have a winning year. Good thing he has an exec producer spot lined up for Cruel Winter (though I hope they leave the brunt of the actual production in other hands).

This is why A$AP Rocky is doing a fucking show for MTV, and has taken a salaried position there. It's why so many rappers are getting into other forms of business and enterprise, like shoes and... other shoes.

But frankly if you don't want someone swooping in and stealing the beat you like, fucking learn how to write beats and produce yourself! Take a lesson and expand your skill set. It's no cooncidence that Dr. Dre and Kanye West are two of the most enduring names in hip-hop. Those boys learned how to fish.

[noisereductions]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

If your audience has a short attention span you need to keep your name out there and your music out there.

but this is just what I was talking about. Audience w/ short attention span = you have to create a constant stream of new music, which ends up flooding the market and watering down your discography. I don't want to hear 3 albums of varying quality per year. I want to hear one great album.

What you're saying is exactly what I was trying to say. When Illmatic dropped w/ 10 tracks and only one guest verse, Nas wasn't rushing to put out 3 more releases before Christmas that year. It was a different landscape. People kept that one record in rotation and in CONVERSATION for the next 24 months y'know?

[Rob Instigator]

I know, but illmatic is overrated. No one nowadays gives a shit about it. even old school heads don't care no more

I thought Dr. Dre was dead? Or was it just his "creativity" since he ran out of PFunk records to steal his melodies and bass lines from like TEWNTY years ago?

I forgot about Dre, and I am GLAD

[Rob Instigator]

part of it is distribution. when an album used to come out, you could pick it up on release day/Tuesday, in most major cities. If you lived in a small town you had to wait, or try and mail-order it. Or, you waited until your friend who could buy it would copy it on cassette for you. It took time to develop.

Nirvana released Nevermind, toured a couple of tours, and waited about 9 MONTHS before it actually hit with teen spirit.... That shit don;t fly no more. If you do not get instant exposure, you will NEVER get exposure. There is nothing to be gained by hip hop fans digging for old releases they may have missed. They either sound old and dated by the time you listen to them, or, like the old days, you will be the only one in your peer group that knows what you are talking about (like me and sonic youth in Alief TX circa 1989)

[Rob Instigator]

and as we all know, rock music is dead, so the record companies know to pick and choose the exact type of music and artist that sells to the middle class white kids with money, which, SADLY, are mainly the acts pushing the trap life, drug game, treating women like bitches and hos, and essentially acting all the negative aspects of being "black" to scare the crap out of white parents. white kids always wanna scare their parents with their music. They are NOT going to do that with shit ass Mumford & sons or Fleet Foxes.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

Hip Hop is a different beast though. If you do not record and release your shit right away someone will come down the line and use the dope beat you thought you had all to yourself and then your tracks sound like shit.

But that is the thing, no one is really sampling or coming up with really innovative techniques so this it moot point, not its become more or less about releasing product in volume.

It is all different now. a record like Travis Scotts "Birds in Trap sing McKnight" goes to the top of the sales charts by selling 80,000 in one week. That is not enough money to recoup the expenses incurred in recording, production, mastering, samples licensed, merchandise, advertising etc.... Bands used ot have to tour 6-8 months out of the year to make money too. Only the acts with huge record sales actually made money off the sales themselves...

In rap touring never really made anyone any money, its almost all exclusively through record sales, publicity, and radio/tv licensing fees..

If your audience has a short attention span you need to keep your name out there and your music out there.

Sure but what is it that shortened people's attention span? Right. the endless quick releases, the instant gratification of streaming, and the more or less crap quality of the stuff being put out in recent years. So its a cycle, a chicken and egg question. Is the audience attention span shortening because of the change in how people access music or is the way people access music changing because their attention span is shortening.

Like i said, the mix tape and three releases in a year trend comes from rappers trying to find ways to make money through more or less conventional mechanisms (e.g. record labels and licensing fees)

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by noisereductions

What you're saying is exactly what I was trying to say. When Illmatic dropped w/ 10 tracks and only one guest verse, Nas wasn't rushing to put out 3 more releases before Christmas that year. It was a different landscape. People kept that one record in rotation and in CONVERSATION for the next 24 months y'know?

EXACTLY and this is the crux of the entire issue, artists don't seem to focusing on putting out masterpieces anymore with any particular sense of vision or purpose. Of course this is also totally understandable as rap and hip hop have for better or worse become this era's "pop music" so its not surprise to find rap lacking in substance. When rap beats are the new background music for TV shows and elevator music it tells you the decline of substance and vision in rap and hip hop.

Perhaps the genre itself has changed so much that the bulk of it is crap for mass consumption hence why none of us more artistically inclined music fans are particularly enjoying any of it..

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

part of it is distribution. when an album used to come out, you could pick it up on release day/Tuesday, in most major cities. If you lived in a small town you had to wait, or try and mail-order it. Or, you waited until your friend who could buy it would copy it on cassette for you. It took time to develop.

Nirvana released Nevermind, toured a couple of tours, and waited about 9 MONTHS before it actually hit with teen spirit.... That shit don;t fly no more. If you do not get instant exposure, you will NEVER get exposure. There is nothing to be gained by hip hop fans digging for old releases they may have missed. They either sound old and dated by the time you listen to them, or, like the old days, you will be the only one in your peer group that knows what you are talking about (like me and sonic youth in Alief TX circa 1989)

what are you talking about nine months?? Teen Spirit and Nevermind were platinum within 6 weeks of release!! The original 50,000 printed sold in the first few days when DGC thought it would take six months to push those units!!! Within 9 months of release (June 1992) Nirvana had already become a cultural force, and indeed pushed out Incesticide to capitalize on their buzz, make some quick cash, and make up for the fact that they otherwise did not have an "actual" record ready for release.
Further Nirvana almost NEVER stopped touring from 1990-1994 because (a) touring was generating huge revenues and (b) it was advertising for the record company releases.

The way Nirvana met the more "instant gratification" demand in the market for new and more was through music videos (hence why the decline of MTV has hurt contemporary music sales) and B-sides/Maxi Single releases..

Rappers now are pushing out too much lower quality product because in the modern decentralized era they are unable to possibly create or generate the kind of buzz or publicity ("trending" or "viral" in today's terms) that something like Nirvana was able to, and Nirvana did it entirely through traditional record company mechanisms and strategies..

[Rob Instigator]

most people listen to shit through crap earbuds. no need to master and remaster and make sure the recordings are amazing, a la steely dan

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

most people listen to shit through crap earbuds. no need to master and remaster and make sure the recordings are amazing, a la steely dan

what in the world does that have to do with crafting an artistic album instead of just flooding the market with half-baked crap and fluff??

Artists don't necessarily spend time on the overall production quality but the production and instrumental arrangements themselves, the lyrical content and arrangements, track listing, etc..

[Rob Instigator]

again, albums treated as a cohesive whole did not exist prior to mid-late 1960's and went out of vogue around the early days of the death of the CD. They hold no weight in popular culture anymore. why work hard to create something that no one will appreciate?

Most musicians are NOT artists. They are craftspeople, who want to make a good living writing, and/or performing music to audiences. They are lucky to craft one good track, much less to create a fully cohesive suite of songs.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

again, albums treated as a cohesive whole did not exist prior to mid-late 1960's and went out of vogue around the early days of the death of the CD. They hold no weight in popular culture anymore. why work hard to create something that no one will appreciate?

Most musicians are NOT artists. They are craftspeople, who want to make a good living writing, and/or performing music to audiences. They are lucky to craft one good track, much less to create a fully cohesive suite of songs.

I disagree that albums have no weight in popular culture anymore, and in particular there is at the least most definitely a viable market within more engaged fans of music, bands, and artists. What I think has lost weight is the financial incentive within hip hop and rap in particular for artists to craft their albums because they don't make as much $ as these records would have made in say the peak of the 1990s.

Today artists in rap and hip hop don't make enough money off their masterpiece releases so they end up putting out a bunch of mixtape quality shitte so push units by volume, especially through licensing fees for streaming sites. This isn't entirely different from the way radio/music videos used to work only artists used to get slightly more $ from radio/videos compared to streaming licensing fees, and further when backed with tangible record releases choreographed by record labels they made more $ from their records when the radio/video spots served effectively as advertising.

At a fundamental level, the sheer fact that you don't have to actually buy records to access music anymore, or at the least dub a copy from a homie who did buy it, means artists are going to make less from their record sales. Since rap and hip hop don't have lucrative tours and merchandising to make up for it, these aren't able to recover the losses through other sources of funding.

[noisereductions]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

I know, but illmatic is overrated. No one nowadays gives a shit about it. even old school heads don't care no more

um. What?

[Severian]

Originally Posted by noisereductions

um. What?

Yeah I don't know what he's on about.
I mean, yes, there are the Lil Yachty types who say Tupac and Biggie are inconsequential. Young Thug saying he doesn't know Jay Z from the mailman. But then you have artists like Anderson .Paak, Kendrick, and even Chance (and Pusha) who all value the classic albums of the big boys.

Illmatic will always matter. Even if Nas doesn't matter (which he kind of doesn't at this point). Illmatic is a part of history. Every mc worth his salt will throw respect at that album, and the production informed a lot of what "kids today" think of as "classic."

If you don't recognize or appreciate the importance of Illmatic, you're on your own.

[noisereductions]

I think that folks like Beyonce and Taylor Swift and Kendrick Lamar have shown us in recent years that people do still care about the album format.

And the whole "nobody cares about Illmatic" thing is maybe the dumbest thing ever said in this thread. And pepper posts here drunk. Sorry, Rob. Love you. But I think you're way off base on this one.