[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

I'm not sure if the US has an equiv. problem, but a major immigration issue facing Britain right now is the disolution of borders within the EU, which effectively means that any person from an EU State (many of which are incredibly poor) are able to settle permanently in any other EU country. Needless to say its the richer EU states offering the best welfare programmes that are encouraging most immigrants. This is having a massive effect on various (primarily blue collar) industries, where immigrants are prepared to work for a lower wage, put in more hours, and seem uninterested in seeking Union membership. In the 1970s, annual immigration into Britain reached 27,000. It is now estimated to be approx 290,000. This doesn't include the estimated 50,000 illegal immigrants that enter Britain each year, and doesn't even begin to tackle the high amount of asylum seekers annuallyapplying for citizenship - of which around 60% have so far had their applications rejected but only 1 in 4 are believed to have left. And in case these figures seem low, remember that in terms of land mass, Britain is roughly the size of Florida and is according to official world population sources 12 times more overcrowded than the US.

Furthermore, arguments that this level of immigration benefits the UK economy are debatable, with some estimates calculating a deficit in GDP, others a modest surpluss of approx 4p per head per week. However the big issue in Britain does not seem to be about GDP, but rather decreases in wage rates, the rise of a more casual workforce as well as the trend towards inner city segregation amongst ethnic groups.

Leaving aside asylum seekers who I believe can't morally be capped in terms of numbers entering the country, I think that it's essential that the amount of purely economic (and at this point entirely legal) immigrants entering Britain needs to be capped at a more realistic annual figure.

If the UK doesn't like immigrants, then why did it attempt to take over the whole world, further why does everybody have to speak english? See, the problem with the US and the UK is that they want to have their cake of globalization and eat it too (no global immigration)

[Rob Instigator]

If the tables were turned and 80% of illegal immigrants came from canada instead of latin america by way of mexico, wodl there be such a bullshit uproar?

[demonrail666]

I'm in favour of immigration, believing it to be an essential part of Britain's economic and cultural welfare. I just think it's naive to believe that an unchecked number of people entering any country does that nation's stability much good.

Yes Britain once colonised two thirds of the globe and it still, quite rightly, maintains a level of responsibility to those countries even after they'd gained their independence - with the exception of the US, ironically enough given the supposed 'special relationship' we have. Further more the vast majority of EU citizens relocating in Britain are not from ex-Commonwealth countries at all, but rather those of the former Soviet bloc which gained EU membership in 2004.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

If the tables were turned and 80% of illegal immigrants came from canada instead of latin america by way of mexico, wodl there be such a bullshit uproar?

Yes, the Americans hated the Irish and the Germans long before they hated Asians and hispanics... xenophobia becomes full on racism in the context of popular American culture..

[Rob Instigator]

the irish and germans and italians were hated for being poor and catholic.
the mexicans and latin americans are also poor and mostly catholic.
hmmmmmmmm

[floatingslowly]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

xenophobia becomes full on racism in the context of popular American culture..

what do they call it in Sudan and Rwanda?

[ThePits]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

If the UK doesn't like immigrants, then why did it attempt to take over the whole world, further why does everybody have to speak english? See, the problem with the US and the UK is that they want to have their cake of globalization and eat it too (no global immigration)

Haven't you worn that card out yet?

[floatingslowly]

Originally Posted by ThePits

Haven't you worn that card out yet?

what's more, I want to know why somebody who is all for leaving America to go Africa isn't pro-anti-immigration.

wouldn't harsher immigration laws actually protect yr brothers and sisters from being sucked into the death machine that is EVIL-BAD-EVIL AMERIKKKA??

[Tokolosh]

Most of western Europe is experiencing similar problems concerning this so-called new "phenomenon",
and I ask myself if stopping them from working illegally will solve this crisis.

Here's an article dating back to May this year.

EU to crack down on employment of illegal immigrants
21-05-2007

Justice and Security Commissioner Franco Frattini has drawn up a plan to increase the number of companies that are annually inspected for the employment of illegal immigrants. Frattini is concerned about the immigrants' welfare and the stream of around 300,000 foreigners entering Europe's shadow economy every year.
In his announcement on 16 May 2007, Commissioner Frattini said that companies will face more spot checks of their employees' work papers as part of a crackdown on illegal immigration across the EU. The worst offending bosses could face criminal charges. According to Frattini, less than three per cent of companies were checked in the EU every year. Each country should now make sure it checks at least ten per cent.
Commision Vice-President Franco Frattini said: "It is vital to acknowledge that the near certainty of finding illegal work in EU member states is the main driving force behind illegal immigration from third countries. (...) We must therefore be firm and committed and act as one to vigorously combat this phenomenon by creating similar penalties for employers and ensuring effective enforcement."
As it stands, 19 of the 27 EU Member States have criminal sanctions against those who employ illegal entrants. In the UK, bosses face fines and a new law will introduce jail sentences of up to two years. Commissioner Fratini, however, wants to ensure that errant employers face more consistent penalties, because legislation and enforcement rates vary widely across the EU. Harmonised jail sentences, although being considered, were not touted at the Wednesday announcement.
Behind the proposal is a desire to reduce exploitation of undocumented immigrants and the "pull" factor that drives illegal entry. Mr Frattini also believes that the employment of illegal immigrants distorts competition.
However, it is far from certain that the draft legislation will be successfully transposed into EU law, with several of Frattini's fellow commissioners questioning whether it is an appropriate measure.
In addition, the plan could see the EU move into the sensitive field of proposing criminal law, traditionally the closely guarded remit of the 27 Member States.
Source: EurActiv

One thing is for sure, putting up high fences or having coastguards patrolling up and down our coasts has only made them more determined to find a better life. I think that if we helped them help themselves in their own countries, they wouldn't feel compelled to come here in the first place.

I'd also like to say that there are tons of illegal Europeans, Americans etc in other countries all over the world, living under the same conditions. What should be done about them?

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by floatingslowly

what do they call it in Sudan and Rwanda?

down in the streets, they call it murder....

[floatingslowly]

Originally Posted by Tokolosh

I think that if we helped them help themselves in their own countries, they wouldn't feel compelled to come here in the first place.

although I agree that the problem needs to be fixed "at home", not many sovereign nations really like being told how to run their country (and I don't think that we should).

if these countries are so bad that people are leaving in droves, there's a good chance that monetary fixes will only be spent on the corrupt and privileged few.

strong-arming them to comply is how "police actions" occur.

moral: there's really no good way to solve the problem.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by floatingslowly

what's more, I want to know why somebody who is all for leaving America to go Africa isn't pro-anti-immigration.

wouldn't harsher immigration laws actually protect yr brothers and sisters from being sucked into the death machine that is EVIL-BAD-EVIL AMERIKKKA??

harsher immigration laws tend to be enforced in ways that hurt people much more then if they were not there at all... and yes, I wish people would stop coming to the United States. I wish that the myth of the streets being paved of gold would stop being perpetuated. I wish somebody would tell these people out there that this place is a war-zone, with thousands of dead folks on the streets every year (prove me wrong, i dare you to open up pandora's box of contemporary America and throw up all yr sins).... but alas, big brother tells them a different story all together. one which perhaps you still cling to in belief. I am not so naive...

[Rob Instigator]

the US population is shrinking steadily. people in america are having far les children than people in the rest of the world. without immigration of some kind our country will suffer a deep collapse of manpower as soon as the 40-50 million baby boomers all retire.

Mexican chicks are HOT

[ThePits]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

harsher immigration laws tend to be enforced in ways that hurt people much more then if they were not there at all... and yes, I wish people would stop coming to the United States. I wish that the myth of the streets being paved of gold would stop being perpetuated. I wish somebody would tell these people out there that this place is a war-zone, with thousands of dead folks on the streets every year (prove me wrong, i dare you to open up pandora's box of contemporary America and throw up all yr sins).... but alas, big brother tells them a different story all together. one which perhaps you still cling to in belief. I am not so naive...

I would love to see the crime figures broken down into which groups commit the largest percentage of which crimes

Lets see exactly who is committing all those thousands of murders you refer to

And how many of them are illegal immigrants

Anyone know if those stats are available?

In the UK they stopped breaking crime statistics on the basis of ethnicity when it was found that 73% of violent crime was committed by 23% of the population

Funny that........

[floatingslowly]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

but alas, big brother tells them a different story all together. one which perhaps you still cling to in belief. I am not so naive...

do not attempt to put thoughts into my head.

I'm just saying that here, yr "logic" is failing you.

on one hand, you wish you could leave this country, on the other, you want open borders for the "ethnic minorities" to come in (en mass) as they please.

let me out! let them in!!

since you are so passionate about the evil that awaits the newcomers, maybe you should be investing yr time into convincing others to "stay out" than bemoaning the attempts of others to do so?

unless, of course, yr motives are purely selfish. maybe you are just more deserving than they are...

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

Mexican chicks are HOT

quoted for truth.

and for the record, my brother's wife's family are all legal immigrants.

[Tokolosh]

Originally Posted by floatingslowly

although I agree that the problem needs to be fixed "at home", not many sovereign nations really like being told how to run their country (and I don't think that we should).

if these countries are so bad that people are leaving in droves, there's a good chance that monetary fixes will only be spent on the corrupt and privileged few.

strong-arming them to comply is how "police actions" occur.

moral: there's really no good way to solve the problem.

I'm not necessarily talking about carelessly giving them money, which we already do. It's about creating healthy foreign businesses with decent jobs and normal wages. That would boost their economies and make a lot of them want to stay. Instead, we move in, pay them shit, and make a profit from their hard labor.

The way they are being treated in our countries, is the same way they are being treated in theirs.

[!@#$%!]

i just read an article the other day where this small town somewhere (connecticut?) started running out the "illegal" immigrants from their municipality.

to everyone's surprise (in the town, that is) when the immigrants left their economy collapsed, stores had to shut down, and they were unable to find workers to do all kinds of jobs.

ah, it was new jersey-- i found the link to a miami herald reposting of the article...

http://www.sunherald.com/editorials/story/159481.html

i'd love to stay & discuss but i have to get off the iternet & work like a mexican.

[floatingslowly]

Originally Posted by Tokolosh

I'm not necessarily talking about carelessly giving them money, which we already do. It's about creating healthy foreign businesses with decent jobs and normal wages. That would boost their economies and make a lot of them want to stay. Instead, we move in, pay them shit, and make a profit from their hard labor.

The way they are being treated in our countries, is the same way they are being treated in theirs.

I agree with you. I'm just not sure I see a "real-world" fix.

governments are monumentally inefficient (and sometimes [edit: often] corrupt).

however, the problem is too large for individuals to tackle (with much hope of success).

what we need right now is an alien invasion force to bring the world together (pardon my pseudo-Reaganism here).

[atari 2600]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

I'm in favour of immigration, believing it to be an essential part of Britain's economic and cultural welfare. I just think it's naive to believe that an unchecked number of people entering any country does that nation's stability much good.

And of course, there's no doubt you are correct with this assessment and all the flak people give you in the face of what should be common sense is nothing more than blowhard blowback. Now Rob is even playing the race card; the one leg you had to stand on just collapsed, Rob.

[ThePits]

The card does nothing more than try to stifle intelligent debate and is most frequently used when the card player has run out of intelligent, valid or real points to make

Why dont people try using the full deck for a change?