[atsonicpark]

I'm agnostic, too. It just makes sense to me.

[demonrail666]

Damn my slowness in deleting posts!

[amerikangod]

Can we all just agree that:

1) All of the well-wishing and the RIP's are bullshit, as well as the outrage over anything but kindheartedness to the news. His death is the best thing that could have ever happened to his children. And my saying that is the equivalent of saying 'RIP Michael we luv u!!!" ... because this is a god damn message board comment, and none of his friends and family can see this. Any love and any hate fall into the exact same void. Any number multiplied by zero is still zero. Wanting to put your two cents in on his death is ultimately a selfish act, as it's just about wanting to be part of a shared social experience. Pretty much the equivalent of visiting Ground Zero while in town from Lawrence, Kansas.

2) Black people didn't 'invent' rock and roll, nor did white people 'steal' it from them. All music, since the very onset of globalization (excluding in cultures completely isolated and removed from any and all outside contact or influence) is a hybridization of styles and influences from across various races and cultures. Denoting things as 'black' and 'white' only furthers division.

And, those two things acknowledged, let us all get back to some hot gay Mexican foot/food fetish:

 

[amerikangod]

Yeah, and who invented the electric guitar? And what culture does the guitar itself originate from? The simplified answers being Les Paul (a white dude) and European. Even blues itself was a blend of African and European musical sensibilities. Point is, none of this formed in a vacuum, and everything was and is heavily influenced by environment. This is a good thing. Just as 'white' culture is influenced by 'black' culture, the reverse is also true.

And, secondly, saying that 'black' people (as an entire group) invented rock and roll is the same as saying that 'white' people (as an entire group) invented electricity. And, in a slightly less analogous way, saying that 'white' people (as a group) stole rock and roll from 'black' people is the same as saying that black people stole electricty from white people.

[terriblecanyons]

 

[amerikangod]

Yep, there are just as many similarities between traditional African music and blues as there are between European music and blues. The point was that even that was a blend. And let's not even get started on all of the different kinds of blues, which incorporate all types of musical influences from other cultures as well. I just don't get the impulse to try to make a cultural institution 'racially pure.' Everything is mixed.

While we're at it, why not form all kinds of other irrelevant divisions? Rock and roll was invented by men, so it's a male form of music, not a female form of music. Rock and roll was invented by a prior generation, not the younger or current generations, so rock and roll is for old people, not young people. How tall were its progenitors? If tall, then it's tall people music, not short people music. If short, then vice versa.

Oh, and 'hispanic' people stole 'white' people's language, religion, and, well, TONS of aspects of European culture. They totally need to stop aping on that shit.

For that matter, black people stole english from white people as well. And the Japanese stole baseball and rock and roll from America. The Japanese also stole a lot of its letters/characters from the Chinese. Motherfuckers need to get their own languages. Oh, and fuck, people who speak english stole the basis of their language and its alphabet from Latin, so black people actually stole from the Romans. The Roman empire actually covered vast areas and incorporated countless cultures, but actually they just stole a little from everyone. They stole their gods from the Greeks!

And the rest of the world stole printing text from Europe. Printing is a white affair. Sorry guys. And the entire world needs to give irrigation back to the middle east.

And what's the deal with 'mulattos'? Stealing DNA from two races, eh?

[amerikangod]

I didn't say that the scaling was lifted from European music, I just said that European music was one of the influences. And just because Thing B is influenced by Thing A, it doesn't mean that those familiar with Thing A won't have their minds blown by Thing B. Influence and hybridization is best when it forms a wholly unique product. See Boredoms' approach to melding styles versus the Mr. Bungle 'oil and water' approach of mixing.

In any case, the influence was more than just the fact that they were playing guitars. But that's not my point. I'm not trying to argue how much one group was involved and not another, my entire point is that there isn't 'racial purity' in culture, and it's counter-productive to try and label aspects of culture as being unique to a race.

Also, everything that followed about 'people shouldn't do this because its not unique to their culture' or what-have-you was not in any way directed at you. It wasn't directed at anyone. I was just ranting / furthering the above point.

[amerikangod]

Elements of culture are (or were) unique to nationality, perhaps, and even that is extremely loose. As soon as people started moving between nations, culture began to mix. And of course even those nations were a composite of other cultures.

As far as race goes, nothing is unique to it. It's a meaningless, floating construct. Someone who is Colombian is considered 'hispanic' and 'non-white,' yet they are genetically part white, roughly half, some more white, some less white.' And 'white' doesn't mean a god damn thing either, it covers countless ethnic groups. At one point Italians and the Irish were considered black. Now they're considered white (by most, anyway.) Black Americans visiting Africa are often seen as white by the native Africans.

And let's pretend all of that isn't the case for a moment, and let's say that 'black' people created the blues with no outside influence whatsoever. Even then it's still a false statement, as it was a uniquely American affair. Blacks in Africa, the West Indies, South America, and countless other locations had nothing to do with its inception.

[amerikangod]

Originally Posted by ZEROpumpkins

Good riddance.

I LOVE THAT GREEN DAY SONG. Also the perfect memorial song for any memorial occasion.

"Another turning point, a fork stuck in the roooooad...."

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by amerikangod

I didn't say that the scaling was lifted from European music, I just said that European music was one of the influences. And just because Thing B is influenced by Thing A, it doesn't mean that those familiar with Thing A won't have their minds blown by Thing B. Influence and hybridization is best when it forms a wholly unique product. See Boredoms' approach to melding styles versus the Mr. Bungle 'oil and water' approach of mixing.

In any case, the influence was more than just the fact that they were playing guitars. But that's not my point. I'm not trying to argue how much one group was involved and not another, my entire point is that there isn't 'racial purity' in culture, and it's counter-productive to try and label aspects of culture as being unique to a race.

Also, everything that followed about 'people shouldn't do this because its not unique to their culture' or what-have-you was not in any way directed at you. It wasn't directed at anyone. I was just ranting / furthering the above point.

All those things are probably very true but, in America at least, you did have such a thing as 'race music' and a 'Black Singles Chart' which was dismantled in 1964. The people who established the Black Singles Chart or the term race music weren't making a point about the origins of a music but the general ethnic makeup of those who bought or listened to it. The Black Singles Chart was renamed not because white artists began making hybrids of RnB (which had been going on long before 1964) but because the massive success of certain bands that used elements of it in their music could no longer be described as appealing to an overwhelmingly Black audience.

Originally Posted by Bytor Peltor

Unfortunately, Michael's legacy is one of failure and sadness. It is truly sad when one cannot find happiness......when one cannot accept who they truly are. All of his worldly accomplishments, possessions and charity couldn't make him whole. Nor could his Jehovah Witness religion, body modifications or his family members.

YES - his songs will remain the same and time will never change that!

This I agree with. He was a victim of abuse who in turn became an abuser himself. Mix that with the fact that up until he really lost it, and with the dementia he had to cope with because of having been denied a safe childhood, free of any pressure, malign beatings, and god knows what other negativity infested his life, he happened to have great talent for pop music, at which he excelled up until Bad. Still not an exemplary human being, and one like many others, like Jenn rightly pointed out, who happen to have a talent for music.

[terriblecanyons]

Originally Posted by sarramkrop

This I agree with. He was a victim of abuse who in turn became an abuser himself. Mix that with the fact that up until he really lost it, and with the dementia he had to cope with because of having been denied a safe childhood, free of any pressure, malign beatings, and god knows what other negativity infested his life, he happened to have great talent for pop music, at which he excelled up until Bad. Still not an exemplary human being, and one like many others, like Jenn rightly pointed out, who happen to have a talent for music.

QFT
It's truly sad, the childhood he was denied, being beaten all the time and being forced to work until the early hours of the morning. I don't know how people can call him Whacko Jacko when it's blindingly obvious that he was in dire need of some serious psychological overhaul. When I see interviews of him talking about the allegations of molesting children and being questioned about letting children sleep in his bed, I don't see someone guilty of any wrong-doing, I see someone who was desperately trying to get a piece of his life back that he was not allowed to have. The way the media portrayed him really sickens me, and I truly feel sad for him and the life he's had to lead because of these allegations.

Originally Posted by terriblecanyons

QFT
It's truly sad, the childhood he was denied, being beaten all the time and being forced to work until the early hours of the morning. I don't know how people can call him Whacko Jacko when it's blindingly obvious that he was in dire need of some serious psychological overhaul. When I see interviews of him talking about the allegations of molesting children and being questioned about letting children sleep in his bed, I don't see someone guilty of any wrong-doing, I see someone who was desperately trying to get a piece of his life back that he was not allowed to have. The way the media portrayed him really sickens me, and I truly feel sad for him and the life he's had to lead because of these allegations.

Let's just say it's sad for everyone involved, not just MJ, who courted media attention like his job requires, since it is safe to say he turned into a paedophile who had a hand at perpetuating sadness for others too.

Another thing that struck me about him is that one of the reasons he turned that ways is possibly the fact that nobody suggested a coping mechanism that involved striving for survival, which is what gives back a fraction of those who have been victims of abuse a regular life, and a newly-found peace of mind. And, the most important thing: safety for others around them.

We will never know if anyone close to him ever suggested a step-back approach at one point in his life, and took into consideration the fact that dude was in the thick of media attention at a very young age, and with more baggage than it is normally sustainable for a child.

[terriblecanyons]

Yeah, he had no means of really dealing what he had to deal with - and in turn resulted in his downfall, though it has been known he's been abusing prescription drugs for some time now. I don't feel that he turned into a pedophile, but I do feel that he became unhealthily obsessed with children. I obviously do not personally know if he did anything to those kids but even if he didn't, someone should've intervened and gotten him some help. I talked about this with my dad extensively today and my dad offered some interesting points; when you have that much money, you don't have to listen to what people tell you. He should've gotten psychological help, he was obviously very lonely, and he probably felt as if he couldn't trust anyone - I don't know, I still find it very sad.

[NWRA]

He was pretty awesome, really: compared to normal peadophiles he was like a kind of James Bond-villian - but without hiding underneath the Earth's crust or something: building a theme-park and a zoo in his garden to attract children and having them sleep in his bed, all while being one of the most famous/photographed men in the World. You've got to admire that. And he had some decent tunes (never been sure who wrote them though?).

Michael Jackson: 'The People's Peadophile'.

[PAULYBEE2656]

he was not charged with child molestation or proven to be a paedophile!! the man died an innocent man! ok, his image was tarnished, ok he was 2 sheets to the wind in the weirdness stakes, he was virtually bankrupt, he was leading a life which many found strange and devoid of any real relevence to the reality we all live in but none of them are crimes.... are they?

[PAULYBEE2656]

sometimes this place is to sanctamoniusly "indie" for it own good yknow......

[phoenix]

My 2 c..

Aside from being a talented pop musician, I think he was a very emotionally and mentally disturbed person, who more than likely because of his situation, fame, and money, never received the treatment or support he really needed, at any stage during his life. I'm not sure I can think of any celebrity who throughout their career has had to put up with more abuse and slander from the media, let alone from their own family/childhood. If he were the same person without the fame and money, I'm fairly sure the kind of treatment he's had at various stages from people would've resulted in news more for being completely the wrong way to treat a mentally/emotionally ill person. Instead for the most part his life has been open to so much more than any normal man/woman I would think could deal with.. let alone someone apparently predisposed to such issues.

In all I thnik it is really, really sad. Last I heard it was a prescribed drug OD that caused it? Which is not surprising. As much as he really is not at all normal, any kind of public mistreatment because of someone's mental instability is kind of fucked up. I'm pretty sure he was a really sad and lonely person inside. There aren't many uniquely talented people out there who don't end up that way, though. Through being misunderstood, or used, or whatever. Still doesn't make it okay though. It's a lonely world when you're different.

[pokkeherrie]

.... and we have the first t-shirts:

 

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by terriblecanyons

I don't feel that he turned into a pedophile, but I do feel that he became unhealthily obsessed with children. I obviously do not personally know if he did anything to those kids but even if he didn't, someone should've intervened and gotten him some help.

I tend to agree with that. His allowing children to sleep in his bed with him was certainly inappropriate but not necessarily motivated by a sexual interest in those he shared his bed with. Certainly the allegations that he was abusing children seemed motivated more by financial gain than they did seeking justice for a crime. Of course, the only people that will ever know the truth are Jacko and the children he slept with.

Ultimately though, Jacko was a sick man (mentally and physically rather than necessarily morally) who did, as you state, need guidance rather than the ultimately fatal shield of protection that he received from his family and a court of sycophantic hangers-on up-till his death.