[Severian]

Let's Face It... Life and work are unbearably terrible things. They're getting worse for a lot of us. I need to have a brain storming session.

I'm interested in hearing some opinions on the current job market in the US, and what it means for the over-educated, the underprepared, the career-changers, the grad students, the med school/law school attendees, Dissertation writers, grad school dropouts who either have to settle or jump back in, and the woefully undervalued terminal bachelor's degree holders.

Let's say your best friend told you that s/he was going to return to school because he couldn't find a place in the intellectual black hole that is the "real world," and s/he came to you asking for advice on three plans s/he'd come up with after a lengthy stint in the private sector.

The plans are as follows, from least (#1) to most (#6) absurd:

1. Return to graduate school with the aim of earning a doctorate in the sciences
2. Going to law school because it's someting.
3. Returning to grad school and getting a Master's in an arts or humanities field (k-12 teaching, journalism, education, or something kind of not quite science, not quite art, like City Planning or Public Policy)
4. Doing what they always wanted to do but never believed they could, and starting medical school with the aim of being a psychiatrist, researcher or something else quiet.
5. Stick with their bachelor's degree, fuck off with their master's, dropping out immediately if they haven't already, and just *knuckling down* and putting all of their energy into some impenetrable field such as print journalism, publishing, non-profit administration, and living a life of experience bouncing from pizza job to pizza job while they chase their dream of making a living wage, enough to support a small family, while doing something they don't hate.
6. Moving to California to start a "Sustainable Eco-Community" for which virtually no hard planning has been done, but at least one reality TV production company had expressed an interest in "pitching" their story to some networks. (Seriously)

How would you advise them?

I ask because my life has taken a pretty huge face plant on the pavement next to where it used to be and so have the lives of many of my fiends. Basically, everyone who didn't get their doctorate, or choose to climb the ladder with complete loyalty over a decade with a major corporation, is fucking fucked. Some of my friends live with their parents. Others are taking on small businesses, and I'm not interested in anything like that.

If I could I'd become Kerouac, but I think someone already did that.

Tell me what you'd say to your friend. Which option you'd advise him/her to pursue, and which you'd advise him/her to avoid like the plague of plagues (which I imagine is a plague that can kill plagues... But since its still a plague, it's probably not a great thing to be infected with.

These are all examples of what people in my life are doing. People who are tired of the "rat race" or who never made it there in the first place and are working MaCDonald's, doing very little with their medieval art degree.


The world ain't right. We all need more options, and better ones.
Feel free to share any insights or success stories of your own.

We're going to be a generation that never sees retirement if things don't start to change in the world.

Many thanks.

~Severian

[evollove]

I very much appreciate this thread. I look at my pathetic life circumstances and figure I ruined my life. Maybe it's not all my fault.

Sorry, I don't have much advice. Getting a teaching certificate sounds the easiest and most sensible, but for all I know the market's flooded with want-to-be teachers already.

Reading your post first thing in the morning has made me feel a little less alone as I face a dreary day. Much thanks. I hope others take this predicament seriously and suggest something useful.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by PLips

save more money

^^ THIS. #1.

i'll write more later.

[evollove]

Ug. You guys don't get it. I knew this would happen.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by evollove

Ug. You guys don't get it. I knew this would happen.

i think you're the one who doesn't get that you're not and you'll never be middle class.

working with a computer or having an education no longer means that you're not a proletarian.


start from that fact.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

"..and the future to us is a dare.. so.. fuck em.. fuck em all!"

[demonrail666]

I can only speak about the situation in the UK but I think they're broadly comparable.

We're now saturated with an over-educated potential work-force, especially those with arts-based degrees, who are now lucky to land a job at Waterstones (the UK's equivalent to Barnes and Noble). So lots of them just choose more education, either Masters or PhDs, not because they realistically think it'll improve their job prospects but because it provides temporary insulation from the reality of their situation. The gaining of qualifications is now similar to the logic of some addictions. It's escapism, for those able to afford it.

This does however mean that there's always a need for teachers. Needless to say though, as more look to take that route, the more competitive it becomes, and usually the successful candidates are increasingly those who've achieved something outside of pure academia (I'm talking about teaching at university level here). Having a blog with a major readership is probably more beneficial to becoming an academic than writing a PhD that's sitting unread in an archive. And even better if you have some industry experience in whatever area you want to teach. Especially as the drive now is for degrees to become ever-more vocational (with all the irony that that represents).

This is an absolute social disaster, creating aspirations that the market simply cannot satisfy. Knowing what I now know, if I could start again I'd have started a small business, bought some property and gone from there. I'd have left higher education well-alone. And I'm one of the ones who hasn't done too badly. But when I look at the situation for new graduates I feel really sorry for them.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

I can only speak about the situation in the UK but I think they're broadly comparable.

We're now saturated with an over-educated potential work-force, especially those with arts-based degrees, who are now lucky to land a job at Waterstones (the UK's equivalent to Barnes and Noble). So lots of them just choose more education, either Masters or PhDs, not because they realistically think it'll improve their job prospects but because it provides temporary insulation from the reality of their situation. The gaining of qualifications is now similar to the logic of some addictions. It's escapism, for those able to afford it.

This does however mean that there's always a need for teachers. Needless to say though, as more look to take that route, the more competitive it becomes, and usually the successful candidates are increasingly those who've achieved something outside of pure academia (I'm talking about teaching at university level here). Having a blog with a major readership is probably more beneficial to becoming an academic than writing a PhD that's sitting unread in an archive. And even better if you have some industry experience in whatever area you want to teach. Especially as the drive now is for degrees to become ever-more vocational (with all the irony that that represents).

This is an absolute social disaster, creating aspirations that the market simply cannot satisfy. Knowing what I now know, if I could start again I'd have started a small business, bought some property and gone from there. I'd have left higher education well-alone. And I'm one of the ones who hasn't done too badly. But when I look at the situation for new graduates I feel really sorry for them.

i wish i could rep you 10 times for this.

great analysis/description of what's going on. i'd like to zoom in on a couple of phrases and add some notes

We're now saturated with an over-educated potential work-force

we're now proles who subscribe to literary journals and dream of the best restaurants

The gaining of qualifications is now similar to the logic of some addictions. It's escapism, for those able to afford it.

most are not able to afford it. they just pile on more debt-- a debt that here in america can't even be discharged by bankruptcy. it's like saying "i'm going to get rid of this rock around my neck by getting a MUCH BIGGER rock around my neck instead!" genius.

creating aspirations that the market simply cannot satisfy

they become more than aspirations-- they way people embrace them, they are dangerous delusions. waking up is hard but essential for survival and any kind of chance at some form of prosperity.

[evollove]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

i think you're the one who doesn't get that you're not and you'll never be middle class.

I forget. How much money do I have in my bank account? Please tell me.

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

most are not able to afford it. they just pile on more debt-- a debt that here in america can't even be discharged by bankruptcy.

Yes and no. Look up Obama Student Loan Forgiveness Program. Also, anyone smart and savvy enough can go to grad school for free and get their undergrad loads paid for. I've just described at least ten people I know.

I think the original question was "Society doesn't seem to need my brain, so what can I do with the rest of my life that won't suck?"

Still waiting for an answer, but I think all I'll end up with is half-baked conjecture and grand-yet-limp theories.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

"..and the future to us is a dare.. so.. fuck em.. fuck em all!"

 

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by evollove

I forget. How much money do I have in my bank account? Please tell me.

not enough to quit a job you hate. am i correct?

Originally Posted by evollove

Yes and no. Look up Obama Student Loan Forgiveness Program. Also, anyone smart and savvy enough can go to grad school for free and get their undergrad loads paid for. I've just described at least ten people I know.

ten people you know don't make the national statistics on student debt. those make the housing bubble look risible [eta: not in terms of size but in terms of limiting individual's options, i.e., having an "underwater life"]

i looked up obama etc --- it's a small relief not a cure-all

http://www.studentdebtrelief.us/forg...n-forgiveness/

besides--who ends up paying for that debt in the end when you don't? teacher's pension funds? social security recipients? headstart programs? that is just shifting money around, is all, a trick, and people are still fucked in the end when they can't get a job and a future from their magic degree after wasting years outside the workforce.

Originally Posted by evollove

I think the original question was "Society doesn't seem to need my brain, so what can I do with the rest of my life that won't suck?"

the original question is a lot more complicated than that, and it includes a number of important assumptions that can't just be taken for granted.

Originally Posted by evollove

Still waiting for an answer, but I think all I'll end up with is half-baked conjecture and grand-yet-limp theories.

i don't think anyone can answer for you the question of what to do with your life. but you can make better choices if you see things for what they are instead of hanging on to some bullshit american dream designed to con you into making payments forever.

[!@#$%!]

[quote=Severian
Tell me what you'd say to your friend.[/QUOTE]

i told a friend a couple of years ago to go to med school, but this is because someone else was paying for it. he's in his 30s now he'll probably finish everything by the time he's 40 but as a resident he'll start getting paid before that.

the thing is there are drawbacks to his choice. he's currently miserable, he was happy before though his job was a dead end. eventually we assume he'll be happy again but he notices a lot of brainwash and socialization goes with the training. it's not all great.

your question is really hard and supercomplicated because i know ultimately you're trying to figure out, yourself, in your situation, what to do, and not just a general thing. (lawyers btw we've had a glut for a while, i think it belongs in the more absurd end of things)

all i'd say at this age is you can't check out for 4 or more years of study and hope you'll like the job when you come back to the world saddled by massive debt.

you'll probably be better off by taking some low-level position in the field you want, test it out, and then study as you go.[eta: this is what rastafriends has been doing for years now]. i mean this is what everyone should be doing after high school anyway, look at the real world first, but instead one keeps learning from books alone-- a bullshit system.

i know there is job growth in the medical field but you don't have to necessarily expect that a top position will be accessible.

a couple of years ago i was having a conversation with a man who was scanning my balls (true story) and he was making a decent living as a medical imaging technician after many years in corporate life (business degree). i think it took only 1 year or 2 of schooling and his pay was solid.

nothing says you can't become a doctor after a thing like that-- i think a lot of EMTs and biomedical engineers and other people like that go to med school. but my friend who's in med school now says it's mostly 22 y.o. kids with zero life experience who don't mind the med school brainwash-- so if you don't mind the age difference it's okay. but in some schools it's not all childrix, there are more mature students.

i also have friends in the rehab business-- they're mostly women and they're sweet people.

anyway, i'm rambling at this point.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

"..and the future to us is a dare.. so.. fuck em.. fuck em all!"

 

[!@#$%!]

before anyone gets unnecessarily offended i thought i should clarify: "proletarian" is not an insult.

it's just the word for wage earners without property. mortgaged homes don't really count as they can be taken away by the bank-- you don't own it until it's all paid off.

the middle class used to be this sort of elevated wage earner that would run the proletarians on behalf of the rich, due to their education. at some point due to their earning power the proletarians earned like the middle class. but those days are over and their numbers are shrinking fast.

the problem in america is that everyone thinks they are middle class. e.g. joe the plumber.

but what everyone fails to see (well not everyone, but people cling to their status of birth) is that the middle class has been proletarized. their knowledge and skill and education are easily replaced or outsourced just like the replaceable farmhand or coal miner of old. anybody and their dog have a degree now.

that's the reality and we have to get used to it. there's the property owners and there's everyone else. and there is no workers paradise.

this is not a cure-all that will fix society, but the safest way for a wage-earner to break free of their proletarian trap is to save like a motherfucker and buy property-- i.e., shares in the very corporations that rule their lives. then they can do whatever the fuck they want. see: early retirement.

i hope it's clear enough that by buying property i don't mean hock yourself to a 30-year loan in the hope that one day you'll own your own mini-castle that you can then borrow against to finance your lifestyle upgrades. that's just renting from the bank. or buying a new car every other year from the car dealer and losing tons in interest and depreciation. by buying property i mean buying the means of production.

of course the aspirationals have their comforts and are unwilling to part with them-- they think if they just keep making their monthly payments all will be well in the end.

this some 4 years after OWS and people still haven't realized that technology and globalization have shredded the old ways of life. they keep clamoring for their return--thinking they can chant babylon down.

so yes, what the information economy brought was not the lifting of the proletariat into the middle class, but rather the proletarization of knowledge. you don't wanna punch your keys? we'll find someone in india. not just data entry people-- lawyers, radiologists, etc.

i actually know diesel mechanics that make a much better living than many people with post-graduate degrees. supply/demand.

in a way the one doing things right here is rastafriends-- because he didn't have any middle class pretentions in the first place and because his record won't let him get sucked into death--i mean debt-- the other slavery. so he picked a job he liked, started at the bottom, and he pays as he goes.

go forth & thrash suckas.

[Bytor Peltor]

The same boiling water that softens a potato also hardens an egg. It's not about the circumstances, but rather what you are made of!

Many who have degrees find ways to make their degrees work for them, while others spend all their time trying to pay off their degrees.

Here in the States, we are dreadfully low on nurses and respiratory therapist. When my father-in-law was battling West Nile, the respiratory therapist were working all the overtime they could handle. According to them, it didn't take much to pull down $150k and $200k plus was doable if you wanted it.

Lots of hospitals are offering sizable signing bonuses to nurses just out of college or tech school.

Sales, depending on the field, can be extremely profitable. Down here along the Gulf Coast, oil field and medical are big business. Like everything, this line of work has it's ups and downs......but a good salesman will rarely do anything else.

Most important of all:

1) be able to pass a piss test

2) don't have a criminal background

3) be personable and reliable

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Bytor Peltor

The same boiling water that softens a potato also hardens an egg. It's not about the circumstances, but rather what you are made of!

Many who have degrees find ways to make their degrees work for them, while others spend all their time trying to pay off their degrees.

Here in the States, we are dreadfully low on nurses and respiratory therapist. When my father-in-law was battling West Nile, the respiratory therapist were working all the overtime they could handle. According to them, it didn't take much to pull down $150k and $200k plus was doable if you wanted it.

Lots of hospitals are offering sizable signing bonuses to nurses just out of college or tech school.

Sales, depending on the field, can be extremely profitable. Down here along the Gulf Coast, oil field and medical are big business. Like everything, this line of work has it's ups and downs......but a good salesman will rarely do anything else.

Most important of all:

1) be able to pass a piss test

2) don't have a criminal background

3) be personable and reliable

at first i was like "hell yeah!" but what if i'm made of egg & potato salad? what if i'm a carrot and at first i turn crisp but then i turn overboiled and soggy?

i am wary of essentialisms, because that means everyone is predestined and has no agency. i'm not a calvinist.

i think some potatos may be happy becoming soup and some eggs might want to stay raw.

what i mean is there's you, and there's your circumstance, but then there's also options. if the water is boiling and you don't like it, you can also move elsewhere. i mean, humans are nomadic creatures for a reason. you can change your space or you can change how you process things.

i'll also add-- #1 (piss test) does not necessarily apply everywhere. some of my friends in the medical fields ingest weed like crazy. i actually think it makes them better at what they do-- sensitive & mellow. like i said, they're sweet people.

#2 -- people with criminal backgrounds have turned their lives around. if you have one, don't let that make you think you're doomed forever (but please stop criming now).

#3 being personable definitely is a must for SERVICE jobs. for products not so much. if you're making a product you don't have to be as personable. there are many unpersonable people who make great things from crafts to research. of course being good at politics never hurts but it's not the only way.

==

anyway, i don't think it's black/white as severian presents it-- it's not like the friends who didn't finished the doctorates are truly "fucked"-- they're alive and well and only hurting at their perceived loss of status. it's not like there were sold into sexual slavery or cut up for their organs-- they just can't afford the luxuries they thought they would. and attachment equals suffering.

so, the faster they embrace their new proletarian reality the faster they'll be able to adapt and make the necessary changes to find new forms of fulfillment.

i kinda like the idea of that eco-thing, except for the tv part-- what a fucking horrorshow.

[dead_battery]

i would take symbol mans posts and then add a little rejoinder -

when it comes to siezing the means of production i at least see this as something that will require militancy and terrorism. because they will simply murder you or beat you until you are brain damaged in the streets in a police kettle before they will redistribute their wealth. and they will seize everything, patent and copyright any new tech and then charge rents on it all. if you are a spoilt middle class cunt you're role is to pretend activism and affect can change things but in reality the system is functionally nihilist.

we proles are harvested for addictions and most of us were raised to be consumers/addicts because its more cheap, quick and profitable than raising us to be say doctors or something good and useful - also because the middle classes will sieze any available income source and squeeze us out.

one of the reason our society is so anti racist is as cover for its hatred and contempt for its own working classes who you will notice are treated using stereotypes and crudity and degradation that would end someones career if they applied to say black people.

i have tried to share the projections of how much of our current jobs automation will make obsolete and have been ridiculed or received hostility from most people. this is because of how uncomfortable thinking about humans as objects and machines or at least ontologically equal to those things makes people - because they are supernaturalists.

property is unaffordable and rent will always be too high.

however:

IF we keep the p2p networks running, anonymous and free from corporate/governmental establishment interference, then we can spread tech schematics and 3d print designs and keep prole scientific literacy and technical skill alive - we can start sharing more and more skills and materials and work towards making the basics of life as cheap or free as possible. so maybe instead of getting gouged by energy monopolies or simply freezing to death on the streets you can print out and make your own cheap solar panels.

we can work towards sharing these things in the cheapest and most permanent conditions possible because the market will try and do the exact opposite.

if we stay at the edge of cryptocurrency we can save our funds from taxation - which is what the rich already do.

soylent is a good example of smart survivalism. also symbols food recommendations.

apocalypse is not realistic - a realistic expectation of our future entails soylent flowing like tap water and free fusion power for all.

of course every reactionary/ignorant/primitivist force will work against all those things. from isis to eco fascists and conservative men afraid of not being able to tell if the light in the fridge is on until they open it - these assholes will all work to keep things primitive and keep us all poor.

its always important to remember how proud people are of things like that and how much pleasure they take in deliberately impoverishing and harming others.

the majority of people in a functionally nihilist society refuse to accept it for what it is and instead chose denial and hedonism. we really are beyond good and evil now and there are no garuantees - no meaning - no aboutness and the universe is indifferent to us.

this means you CAN try and live a civilized and decent life but their is no point and those sneer at you for this and despise you can win. there's no battle of good and evil with one or the other victorious. there's no point in being alive. no reason not to kill yourself or whatever.

a great many people will chose accelerated death and brain damage through consumerism and their chaos will fuck things up for everyone else and there's not much you can do about it.

its also important to remember that proles are scapegoated IN ORDER THAT everyone else does not have to face the negative consequences of their actions when they say destroy the economy or whatever. the role of the prole is to be BLAMED FOR obesity BECAUSE others profit off him becoming obese. we are beyond the point where we're kept alive to be worked or slaughtered in wars since our countries just run wars for profit and its more of a kind of exercise in deliberate suiciding of and destruction of surplus products than attempt to seize land and expand empire.

they never give back more than they take and they will take everything you have unless you can have it anonymously. as a immigrant prole who works somewhere prone to armed robbery and walks home from work late at night i'm probably the most statistically likely guy to be murdered in the area.

now you have to understand that there is a reality and not just statistics. in the reality you are physically incapable of accessing the resources the rich have. this means you really are just fucked.

it wont get better and noone will help because everyone hates you. if you are niaeve enough to think they have sympathy for you this is just a trick. they might enjoy simulating the feeling of it in themselves but it wont translate into action.

the suicide in the uk is spiralling and its important to understand that suicide is something we are now invited to do and will soon be punished for not doing. an article in the gaurdian recently by someone who made 100+k off property talked about old houses which had a specific type of rafter that you could hang yourself on. they didnt say it with malice - they say things like this with pleasure because they take pleasure in being above the reality in which the rest of us are dissappeared. your misery is your own FAULT precisely BECAUSE you havent killed yourself. the inhumanity of people in this system is by design and they take pride and pleasure in it.

i cant really express what i want to - its like now our humanity is a weakness and something that is used to trick us. the idea of amelioration is another scam. its like reality is so bleak that only scams and delusions and lies and illusions can get you through it, and people have learnt to profit off this.

[dead_battery]

practical things you can do -

since consumer objects are designed for built in obsolescence - you have to search out the best quality/cheapest/longest lasting stuff. for example i paid £150 for an high quality parka that will last decades if i keep it right. it is so warm that i could sleep in it instead of paying £200 for a few months worth of heating oil.

imitate the americans and stockpile like a survivalist. go to bargain stores and get a years worth of toiletries then store them. this means you HAVE shit rather than always NEEDING it and you wont waste money the entire year on buying more readily available and expensive versions of these things after having ran out of them.

best and cheapest shoes i can find are karrimor from sports direct - quality is EXTREMELY good and they are EXTREMELY long lasting. £20-30 for shoes that you might pay hundreds for to match the quality of otherwise.

bargain stores - buy it cheap and in bulk, check expiration dates and keep it stored or boxed up. since you will always run out of money and neither the dole nor your job can be relied on, you need to have essentials stockpiled to last you between whatever cash you get. it will run out and you will always, always not have enough.

so the more stuff you can GET the better off you are. once you HAVE shit you have it and its not something thats tempting you to spend money you cant afford on. you cant really own much because if it has saleable value you will have to sell it to eat so having lots of things you need but cant sell is always good. dont expect to be able to pay for new teeth when yours fall out or shit like that.

if you are male spend £20 on a gillete razor/shaver and you can give yourself free haircuts with it.

there are food banks but they are of course under attack from the government thats profiting off our poverty. i would recommend joining a church because you might find some sort of community that pools together to help its least fortunate members. this DOES happen in some churches - rich church goers will help poor ones. not all of course.

impovershed consumers wont spend more but we cant acknowledge this because our ideology is supernatural magic about the 'creation of value' which supposedly makes money generate from our bodies. there are a few tories trying to build new nuclear plants but they are always gonna be sabotaged by the eco fascist left which thinks we need to use LESS energy.

also, tescos reduces its nearly out of date stock daily and final reductions happen around 5pm or later.

vitamin and minerals are essentials - make sure to know something about nutrition - your body/brain comes first.

remember everyone hates you and would rather beat you to death for being poor than have to witness your existence which offends them in itself. it is your suffering and life that they HATE but not the way you hate it.

[Severian]

Well, this has been semi-productive.

I am stuck on this credentials as addiction/escapism mentality. For me, I absolutely need to get ready-enrolled in grad school and finish my master's at least, preferably my doctorate. I need those credentials because I want to work in academia and be a part of my chosen science.

I could do this in medical school too, but one of the two pretty much must happen or I suspect I won't be receiving any 40th birthday cards.

This was well in the back of my mind when I was working 60 hours a week for an accounting an marketing firm. The $$$ kept my existential angst at bay. But I no longer have that job. I no longer have anything. I'm temping at a University and working 24 hours doing bookkeeping for a non-profit.

Where will the money come from? I am now virtually destitute, yet I still don't qualify for government assistance. I suppose I could make use of my mental health issues and try for disability, but I don't have a lawyer anymore, and... Well, I'm guessing they'd take it away once they found out I was attending graduate school. Can't be disabled and smart, right? No.

I will not live an empty life for the sake of living. I need to take some steps toward rebuilding what I've destroyed by opting to be a hard working, self reliant *loser* in the years since grad school went *kaboom*

I want to know I'M not alone. Yes that sounds really needy, but I'm freaking out here, goddamnit.

Oi

[!@#$%!]

^^ lissen

im part drunk right now and can't write now but i'm leaving this in case you're having a hard night or something

there are MANY ways to get out of that hole

well talk in the weekend eh?

don't panic!

okay.