The Sonic Youth (and Rather Ripped) Challenge
 

Here's a pretty long post that touches on why the "Rather Ripped" 'backlash' exists for reasons beyond taste, and the reaction to almost all of Sonic Youth's albums after 1989. I realized while listening to Rather Ripped that each Sonic Youth album is a near-direct challenge to the listener to like and accept the album on its own terms, because almost no one has broad enough music tastes to instantly like Sonic Youth's entire output -- though I think most people have the ability to get past the "instant" requirement and really get into something long term. This mini-'essay' (not to be pretentious) ... will save your life.

I decided to post this after being, um, rather underwhelmed by Rather Ripped at first, only to play it a bunch of times on the record I bought of it and being slowly won over by it. I then thought back to my Sonic Youth engagement roots, in which a friend of mine had me listen to "Shadow of a Doubt." I wasn't really into that either at first. Finally, I fell in love with it. I went out and bought "Daydream Nation" and "Dirty." I had a particular, yet undefinable interest in liking "Daydream Nation," and had to listen to it several times before I found it anything other than a really treble-y, noisy, loud "punk" record. I fell asleep while listening to it. Now, I've bought it twice on CD (the second time to get the Blast First edition, which doesn't really sound any better than the Geffen release to my ears) and I even bought it on record (which is a really nice item, especially with that poster).

I think the most challenging albums for me after DDN have been the most challenging for a lot of people -- "A Thousand Leaves," "Experimental Jet Set," and "NYC G&F" (not counting "Free City Rhymes"). They're all really strange records that have such small things going on sometimes that it seems 'boring' on the surface. In some cases when getting into the Sonic Youth pool, you have to learn to marry the noise and the melody into one harmonious unit -- to bring sound into its own arena before we're taught the 12 note scale and all of that. In other cases though, like on "Female Mechanic Now On Duty," there's something about the music that seems unusually empty or thin; it repels me at first. But after awhile, I learn to listen to even that emptiness.

In any case, I think Sonic Youth's music is always hiding something. If you don't like an album by them, put it on and play it to death with the idea that you want it to be your favorite record by them by the time you're done with it.

For "Rather Ripped," I think the problem is two-pronged, one having nothing to do with the music but rather the reaction (or, really, reactionary response) to its perceived commercial qualities. Beyond the obvious reality that straight-on pop-rock music isn't really commercially viable anymore, just because it's catchy doesn't mean it's normal. Other than the song structures, the production on Sonic Youth's albums (other than maybe Goo and Dirty) has never been punchy or defined enough to make the music attractive to most ears. Sonic Youth can do a Beach Boys cover and it still doesn't sound 'right.'

As far as the music on RR itself, it might just be boring to you if you're just into Sonic Youth for the drums or the propulsive energy. And if you just really listen to Sonic Youth for the bass and the drums, you should try forcing yourself to like some of the rest of it; you're missing out on as much music as I was when I was 17. I think the more music we can 'figure out' how to like, the better we're going to be out in the real world.

One of the reasons I really dislike Pitchfork (besides the fact that a lot of the writers seem to be those kids that are C- writers in high school but pressure their teachers into getting B's, and so they've never learned how to write a persuasive piece of writing with a logical center) is because they seem so disinterested in taking records on their own terms. Almost every (and obviously therefore, not every) review is heaped in a band's extra-musical history and significance, and devotes a ridiculously small portion of the review to what the music is or what the music might be trying to do within an artist's musical history (if he/she/they have one yet). Even the reviews that I agree with in evaluative terms, I have great problems with their context and the philosophy underlying why they gave a record the grade they did. Pick a recent Pitchfork hyped band you don't like, and you'll find that the reasons they liked such a band have surprisingly little to do with the music and more to do with an objectively poorly considered sense of the music's "context."

Beyond the Sonic Youth challenge of trying to accept a record for what it is -- you know, obviously: listen to the music you love. I also don't think an internet post can change the way anyone thinks about music, but maybe it can. Whatever the implications, I just wanted to pass along an already well-articulated but not often-enough reiterated thought about their work and about music in general.

Thanks for reading all the way through this if you did.

- Johnny American

nice second post.

Will you be going to that show in Brooklyn in the swimming pool?

Great post. Really didn't like RR for a while, I quite like it now, should have known I would. I've disliked pretty much every Sonic Youth album at first.

"In any case, I think Sonic Youth's music is always hiding something. If you don't like an album by them, put it on and play it to death with the idea that you want it to be your favorite record by them by the time you're done with it."

So true and good advice.

Thanks for the great post. it is all true. it all makes sense. I held onto washing machine fro 4 years before I really ga ve it the repeated listens in the car on the way to and from work, and FUCK IT BLEW ME AWAY

every sonic youth album has been that way to me, except goo and rather ripped. those I loved instantly. The others took several or multiple luistens, and that is as it SHOULD BE!

rock on london
rock on chicago
sonic life!

Nice words man.

Maybe I just truly dislike this album.

I think Ass blaster is using reverse psychology on us!

I think rather Ripped is an amazing rock album in the vein of sister some of the prettier EVOL stuff. It is a throwback and it is amazing and it rules and if you don't like it don't worry about it.

i love the album. i think the band is happy with it. and i tend not to put so much thought into. i just like the sounds and the words

I don't think it has anything to do with intelligence, maybe more with patience. I am not and do not think I am that smart. Nor am I particularly patient, but with some things I am, I guess. But like I said, if you take their challenge and it doesn't work out, you just have to go back to listening to what you love, but at least you tried.

As far as music criticism is concerned -- yes, I do think that if you are willing to take an album on its own terms, you are a better music 'critic' in a, yes, (perhaps) more elitist sense. I don't think there's anything wrong with being able to tell the difference between a well-written and a poorly-written review. I think many of the reviews I read on very popular online music sites are just opinion pieces that aren't comfortable with the fact that they're opinion pieces; to that end, they are the literal definition of pretentious (I don't want to get into all the other connotations that word brings up and leaves out). The problem with this is, I think that the more popular you are, the more power you have, and therefore, the more responsibility you have to whatever arena you're writing in. I think Pitchfork's very naked attempts to stay on top of things by recommending very safe music does the adventurous side of multi-faceted independent music wrong. At the same time, I also don't think music is something to get really hostile about. Bonafide criticism is appropriately historical, respectful and realistic at the same time; many of the, say, Pitchfork reviews are overly historical (focusing way more on the basic facts of a band's past, or of a band's 'image' rather than what the record literally sounds like), not very respectful (check out many, although of course not all, reviews of music on Pitchfork that tries to do something 'strange' or different that was made by bands that came about after 2003) or realistic (harder to quantify this). That said, I think that it's very hard to write a really good critical music article; not many people (including me, I think) can say really meaningful things about the actual music side of things. But those people do exist.

But back to the main point: The Sonic Youth Challenge = more mind-expanding than many drugs.

And also, if I still lived on the East Coast, I would totally, totally go see Sonic Youth actually play in a pool. It'll be like those Nevermind photo shoots but without the water! And a different but related band! Nostalgia!

- John

wow.

Johnny, welcome aboard. great first post.

you explained the way SY happens to be, in our collective mind.
very first time i've heard them it was 100%, the video. my cousin had it on a videotape. i was into thrash death metal. i laughed when the anti-solo (if you wanna call it that way) went on.

something like 40 times after seeing the video again in the very same day (my cousin really dug the song) i was totally fucking addicted.

and so on.

"In any case, I think Sonic Youth's music is always hiding something. If you don't like an album by them, put it on and play it to death with the idea that you want it to be your favorite record by them by the time you're done with it."

total wisdom.
cheers, dude...!

where is hayden at? I was waiting for him to come in and say

"Get over it. It fucking sucks. KTHXBAI." and then say something about how good arab on radar or the yellow swans or Xiu Xiu are

I think this time their music is just bad. There is no way around "bad."

If you have to convince yourself to like an album, you're only doing it for the artist's sake. You don't want them to feel like failures, and you don't want to feel like they have failed you. Well, what if they have? Life goes on. They have other albums. They may have more in the future. If you really are disappointed by Rather Ripped, the disappointment does not stem from anything deeper than the music itself. Anything more, and you're just over-analyzing. It's just a record. And it's awful, but what can you do about it.

EDIT: And anyway, I think your problem is that you are mistaking familiarity for a genuine liking of the album. Just because you listen to an album hundreds of times, it doesn't mean it gets better with every listen. Surely you've heard that the definition of insanity is performing the same task over and over again, and expecting different results.

thats how the sonic injection comes up your ass!!!
sonic life!
rather ripped

SHENTOV I love ya brother! SONIC LIFE!

I just dont like it. The fact is, its all opinion. If sonic youth dont sell alot of their albums then the fans are saying they dont like it, and thats as close to a fact as you can get....

I've had similar experience in the past w/ getting into sonic youth records. I was a hardcore fan in the early 90's and before David Geffen re-released all the old Sonic youth pre-goo discs, i was always on the hunt for them. I had a list, and was in constant search. I was in a record store in tampa that had an SST closeout bin (i guess when they went out of buisness) and I found "Sister" - WOW what a find. But then I couldn't get into it...took a while. Then about a year later I took a road trip and the cassette I made of the CD just played over and over, I couldn't stop listening to it.

Then Experimental Jet set came out - same thing, I listened to it several times in store and dismissed it as a let down. Then after months went by, needing to get new sonic youth I decided to give another try. And whoala, like magic the album opens up to you.

I could go on and on...but I think the difference with those records and Rather Ripped is that, although I didn't "like" the record, something would compell me to listen again - who knows what. The structures proposed challenges: it was like unlocking a puzzle or something. The Rather Ripped CD seems like there is nothing much hidden to get at - it's all right there on the surface. Some songs certainly open up live, like "OR" and "jams run free" - but overall, I think the band is struggling to redefine themselves post-Jim O'Rourke. I feel it on the album, I felt it in live performance. I have faith in these guys, but for me Rather Ripped after repeated listens doesn't really hold a candle to Nurse, and will just be a footnote in their catalogue, similar to how NYC ghosts and Flowers is to me - a transitional record. I think this "trilogy" of albums, as many have called them the last 3, has brought to an end a way of songwriting that the band
has explored to the fullest they can. I think the next couple of years after this big summer tour will see the guys (and gal) experimenting again and finding their new voice. It's not easy, especially when people expect so much from new sonic youth records. Maybe a chain of independent SYR releases will do them good. Whatever happens, I'll be there to catch the next chapter of Sonic Youth.

Unless of course, Rather Ripped is a kind way of saying good-bye to the sonic youth we've known and loved so long...really hard to say. I don't think they will ever stop performing in the NYC and western MASS areas, but it is possible, and i've felt it coming, that this may be the last big sha-bang across the country.

who knows...

dude, it is all there. listen again. turn it UP. TURN IT UP PEOPLE!!!! ROCK OUT.

rock OUT like you were 13 years old and angry as fuck and need someone to show you how love can sound, for Rather Ripped is a LOVE album, and that may be why it seems so discordant with the rest of their outut, but I tells ya, the album fcking RULES!

alright ROB, I will try your experiment. I'll turn it up real loud next time. I mean, I really like some of the songs, REENA in particular.

But like Sleeping around and RATS really rub me the wrong way...I dunno...I'm definatley all about giving it another chance...

I think that is why this last sonic show I caught was my least fave of the three shows I've seen from them (and countless bootlegs I've heard)...just not getting into the new material so much and with Jim gone, they have alot less older material to choose from. But why teach Marc all these songs if he's not gonna be a full time member - I see their predicament.

My first sonic show at bonnaroo in 2003 was incredible. While mixing in Murray street throughout the set, they also played a song from almost every other album they have done: opening w/ She is not alone, then later doing schizo, kool thing, brother james, sugar kane, eric's trip, teenage riot, bull in the heather, kill yr idols...great freaking show. I MISS JIM!!! Can't wait til they find a full time replacement. Though it looks like as this tour is progressing they are slowly working in more older songs - I guess teaching them to Marc as they go. But obviously the emphasis for this tour was getting the new songs tight w/ him as I believe he will just be temporary. He does not have as much to bring to the table as Jim did.

rather ripped is a great album. Theres still the noise and guitar antics, you just have to listen for it, it doesn't pop out infront of you. give it a fuckin' chance, man. Its A+ material. + this is the first album where I think they did a great job on the vocals, they're actually singing songs.

RATS rules. It is a classic ghostly LEE song.
the squal of nopise at the begging and middle of sleeping around are amazing.


the whole album is a love album, with Lee's song being the counterforce to the love, the cynic decrying the lovestruck "rats"

Rather ripped is better than murray or nurse.

and i love those albums.

the more I listen to it the more I love it.

Rob is, to be quite frank, not the most intelligent person on this forum. Therefore, his opinion is void.

yes and some 15 year old wanna be hipster's opinion is to really be taken seriously :fuckyou:

that's funny.

a battle of wits mayhaps?

Lee owns the stage on RATS, he performed it with expert precision last night and I got to watch it. Classic SY

Society is a Hole. Assblather (sorry couldn resist)

Nope, I wish. Just some word association.

They did play Shaking Hell tho, really incredible live w/ Thurston on P bass.

yea, I think they've been doing shaking hell at every show, I caught it at bonnaroo...

Interesting "essay". I agree with you on some points. SY records aren't always immediatley likeable. Just becuase their music is more complex and down right different from what most people hear. Although, some songs I have immediately liked. More so once I became a Sonic Youth fan. And once being a Rather Ripped basher myself, I have begun to like the album more and more once I bagan really listening to it. I think the reason I was so innitially displeased with RR was that I was expecting an album that was along the lines of Sonic Nurse or Murray Street. Once I heard that it wasn't nearly the same kind of album (or any other Sy album to date) I was turned off. But a few weeks went by and I felt that I owed it to myself and above all to Sonic Youth to give the album another listen and discovered that it was pretty good. I still dislike parts of the album, but I don't dislike any full song, only parts of certain songs. I feel that they are lacking a little bit of something here and there. Sometimes I feel that if the band added a little bit more energy or an extra guitar part here or there (ya know, just a few little minor detail changes) the songs would come across much better. They would sound stronger and more confident; essentially more "Sonic Youth-y". In my opinion, it sounds like some of the songs are still in their infancy; the genesis of potentially awesome songs. But hey, it's the band's music and they can create whatever they want whether we like it or not. I will still continue to support Sonic Youth, one of my all time favorite bands, and give Rather Ripped more of a chance. It still sounds pretty decent. I just don't think it's one of their best works.

"TURN IT UP PEOPLE!!!! ROCK OUT.

rock OUT like you were 13 years old and angry as fuck and need someone to show you how love can sound, for Rather Ripped is a LOVE album, and that may be why it seems so discordant with the rest of their output, but I tells ya, the album fucking RULES!"

ROB IS THE MAN... nothing to add!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

jesus. why do people who hate sonic youth so much even fucking post here?? Now people are being bashed just for being sonic youth fans? it's fucking absurd! this is the sonic youth forum, how stupid for people who actually enjoy the band to proclaim their love of the sonic music. This board used to be kool, but now it's over run by people who do nothing but bash anything that anyone might like at all. it's alright if you don't like the new album, but people act like sonic youth have never even put out 1 record worth their time, so why post here? Sorry they haven't re-made confusion is sex for the past 25 years, but get over it, and grow the fuck up. Y're not earning scene points here for bashing SY. fuck pretentious hipsters.

I'm not confusing familiarity for genuine digging, for the simple reason that in most cases, for me, I get tired of most music that I listen to over and over again. In other cases, I'll love an album instantly and then it wears out. There are some exceptions for both these cases, and the most notable one (and, here, most relevant) is Sonic Youth.

I once read an early New York Times live review of Sonic Youth where the reviewer was talking about how all the dissonance allowed for people to hear different melodies, sounds and interactions within the same sonic moment. I thought such a statement was kind of an overly-intellectual approach to the music (it's the rock riffs and it's Kim, man!!! -- or whatever). Now, I kind of agree. I think there's so much non-tonal stuff going on in the early music, and such a high level of unconventional arrangement within a rockist sound in their post-DDN output that the music is really open to you hearing a lot of things with it. Therefore, even though I've liked Sister from day one and have heard it, god, I don't know how many times -- I still love it. It's not boring yet, and I've known it for four years. And then there's Rather Ripped, or some of ATL or EJSTNS and I didn't like it at first, and it's grown on me. So, for me, in Sonic Youth's case, familiarity doesn't explain it. I think finally understanding it explains it.

That said, I didn't mean to suggest that every Sonic Youth album is equal; I don't even know what that would mean, really. I just think that a lot more of their records deserve a lot more "respect" or whatever from their fanbase and especially, especially from the critical world. (Kind of funny that Christgau is their big booster these days and has been when others keep talking more and more about how "old" they are, huh?)

And also, I'll reiterate that my main goal for this essay was just to maybe (but probably not) turn some people on to some good experiences with music they may not have really given a chance to -- not to force my own tastes down their throat. I do think that almost everyone on here has a favorite SY album that they think is underappreciated by most other people/critics -- if so, you might disagree with me about Rather Ripped, but I hope you get my larger point(s).

Play it loud.