Pavement ripped off the Fall
 

I read this off Wikipedia the other day.

The Fall's primary member, Mark E. Smith, would often angrily claim through the years that Pavement was a "rip-off" of his band [3] and that they didn't "have an original idea in their heads."

Does anyone know any songs that I could listen to that would support Smith's claim? Or is this just bullshit and Pavement sound completely original. I haven't heard much of the Fall so I couldn't judge.

the only songs that sound like the fall are off of slanted ad enchanted and westing by musket ane sextant, and then it is the slower ones, stuff like HERE and summer babe. fuck the FALL. FUCK THE FALL
they can eat a dead donkey's chancred asshole.

you fell on the pavment and got ripped?

the fall and pavement are two wholly different things. mightas well go around telling the world that every single band ripped off the beatles, and that metallica ripped off the misfits and that alice in chains ripped off megadeth and that sonic youth ripped off the velvet underground, etc etc.


fuck those whiny bitches from the fall.

summer babe? that one sounds more like my bloody valentine than the fall

listen to two states and conduit for sale

now, excuse me, i have to go burn my pavement records because they were such rip offs!!!

I mean. i dont agree or anything, but I just wanted someone to recommend me some Fall music that is reminiscent of Pavement or has similar sounds because it might be a good place to start to listen to the Fall.

my bloody valentine?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!??!?!?!!?!?! ? not to be an ass, but you have to be kidding. :rolleyes:

depends what pavement you know or like...

ok, like slowdive or ride; i mean, that wall of guitars?

Listen to New Face In Hell by The Fall and then Conduit For Sale! by Pavement. Then you will now why Mark talks shit about them

Malkmus' response from a Thurston Moore interview where he references the claim:

“Ripping them off? What does that mean, that I am getting rich sounding like them?”

but then again, malkmus himself did admit that when they started , he wanted to sound like the fall and all their early album covers looks almost identical as othe fall lps

hey, influence is influence, and a young band is going to wear theirs on their sleve, especially pavement which was just malkmus and spiral stairs for a while, then their drummer, Young. OF COURSE they sound like their idols. I mean, complaining about this is stupid and the dudes in thefall can eat it.

may as well call Polvo and Unwound rip-offs too for sounding like the GODS OF ROCK, SONIC YOUTH

I don't like the fall. I like pavement. I guess the rip-offs did it better.

Do it, they are one and the same.
I like pavement and the fall, the influence is only on the surface on Slanted and enchanted and bits of crooked rain, after that pavement found their own sound a bit. Indie-bitching is shit in the extreme.

Pavement are a nice band with nice songs, The Fall are a nasty band with nasty songs. Depending on how youre feeling, either can be better.

well, yeah, theres distortion, but theres not really a WALL of guitars. i mean, of course i see what you mean, but mbv and slowdive went a lot further with that huuuge distorted sound.

Both bands kick ass. Originality is overrated.

Everybody rips off everybody whether it is intentional or not.

the only song i can think of there's that sounds like the fall seems like a tribute to them by adopting their style. they do it with a number of artists and it never seems like they're exploiting the artists talent as much as giving them a musical compliment

I find a fair number of similarities between Pavement and The Fall esp. between both bands early records. I'd also say the same with The Swell Maps (Listen to "The Helicopter Spies"). I'll also admit it took me a while to see why Pavement were accused of ripping off The Fall. I loved Pavement a few years ago but now The Fall have so much more substance.

i'm saying nothing till Hip Priest makes his sermon..

totally right. malkmus has fully admitted that he ripped off the fall donkeys years ago he also said that "its not like i or anyone else got rich from simply ripping off mark e smith"

no big deal, mark e hates anything that resembles his influence, he is an odd being, an unique creature and one who should be applauded and why not rip him off, everyone is guilty of ripping off someone, even id say sy have ripped off the fall in the past, they have said that they were one of the bands that they formed sy to be like, shit mark is even in the teenage riot homage to heroes video!.......... dont get the pavement/mbv/slowdive connection tho!

look malkmus even ripped off his image... they couldve been separated at birth!!!!!!!!

i think malky looks like that geeky dude, Murray in Malibu CA,

yeah mark e smith is always a difficult customer, and is frequently saying disagreeable things about one person or another. i think he said SY was music for students, he called nick cave a typical work shy australian (to his face i belive) he's punched out his band members before.... pavement were very good, but you can't seriously compare them to the fall.

pavement were great in their prime, the first 3 albums are classics but the fall are the fall. always the same, always different, always there and always the fall. probably the 4th most important band in rock n roll history!

yeah, there's a lot of similar things that can be heard on grotesque that helped pavement to
built their songs... malkmus admit it i think on the slow century dvd. he says "...(showing
slanted & enchanted in the record store) this is for fall's fans..."

even the way MES pronouces/shouts his cryptic lyrics (pay the rate) has been ripped off, the
catchy riffs, the drums sometimes (hip priest vs our singer) from hex enduction hour...

yeah, pavement is a fucking rip-off and IT WAS A DAMN GOOD IDEA TO RIP THE FALL!!!
it could have been worst.

I can't stand Pavement. I'm surprised that there are people who like both the Fall and Pavement. Malkmus' voice is super-annoying (to me), the first album is rampantly derivative, the further albums just a bit lame and not worth they hype. I'm surprised this is even a debate, but then, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them listen to the Fall.

I'm not crazy about the Fall..and i really tried to like them. They have a few good tracks here and there, but considering their output, i think they r overhyped as legends b/c they were around during a crucial time period for underground music.

Mark E Smith is almost completely non-musical to me compared to Malkmus.

Interesting. I think they're one of the few people who aren't overhyped... they've been together since the late 70's and, if you're into them, have done at least 20 very, very good LP's, and not very many dodgy ones. Their second most recent is widely regarded as one of their better ones, and the general quality of their output is, to most Fall fans minds, unsurpassed.

Malkmus is an all right musician, but the difference between the Fall and most bands is that it isn't really about one musician being great, it's quite the opposite - it's about a group, playing a song, with little to no indulgence from any of the members, and a lyricist who stands over and above most lyricists I can think of.

Sillly of me to debate it, you don't like it, I do... meh.

I heard that Mark E. Smith hate everybody :D

Maybe b/c i'm a musician, i feel it's boring musically. I'm not trying to be a snob or anything. But some of the tunes regarded as classics are three unoriginal chords strung together and MArk E throwing some words in here and there.

Thery're more about style. But i'm a huge pavement fan. Malkmus i think picked up his style early on but that was about it.

Fuck that, tell me anything off of Wowee Zowee or crooked rain sounds like the fall, Mark is just mad cause he has birtish teeth and is not successful.
Finn from the sopranos looks like malkmus

priceless!!

Jesus, Malky does look like that finn guy.

There is a certain similarity (well, sort of!):



THe problem is that The Fall have such an identifiable and original sound; very few people sound anything like them, so when someone does sound like them, the claims of rip-off are inevitable.

The Fall's massive influence on Pavement is undeniable, absolutely clear in song style, structure, lyrics, artwork and vocal delivery. Having said that, I think that basically Pavement took The Fall's concept and made it very American. I also think there's a difference in that Malkmus's words are written ads lyrics, whereas MES's were originally intended as poetry (ie without musical accompaniment) - I think that shows through to an extent.

It's inevitable that we are influenced by what we like, and it happens across all art forms - I think whether that influence constitutes 'homage' or 'rip-off' depends upon how you feel about the two subjects.

I just do not see it past slanted and enchanted

once they became a BAND, a full band, they developed their own idiosyncratic pavement sound, and it sounds nothing like the fall. nothing on crooked rain, wowee zowee, brighten the corners, or watery domestic sounds like the fall.

"imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."

I agree that by 'Wowee Zowee' or so the musical influence had become much more diluted. Like I said though, that kind of lyrical composition and delivery are very distinctively MES. It just so happens that that kind of lyrical composition and delivery have never become widespread.

I'm not a Pavement fan (I like Wowee ZOwee though), but I can see that MAlkmus progressed things. MES was right to notice the similarity at the start though.

quite frankly though, the single most "ripped off" British band of the last 30 years was and is and will continue to be WIRE.
the undeground owes them a good reach around.

can someone list the top 3 FALL albums that FALL novices should get. the ones that sound the most distinctively FALL-like?

really? Wire got heavily ripped off? by who? Wire is the shit though. i only have Pink Flag. i really want missing chairs. Send was really good too, especially for a bunch of old guys.

If you listent o PINK FLAG you can hear the germs of what was to become pretty much every indie underground scene in the 80's and 90's. You can hear the post punk, the guitar tones. you can hear the musical ideas which would spring forth in later bands. it is wonderful. that is how art works.