I actually once wrote a college essay for a women's studies course in which i argued from this exact stance :D

Agreed. Just because men act inappropriately does not mean that it's healthy for her to also do so.

Still, I do agree with the point that she gets a lot of shit for acting outside of her set aside role. She is a fascinating character to watch. Also, Live Through This was the first "alternative" album I ever bought so Hole will always have a special place in my heart.

Yeah I agree with that, I just think you're barking up the wrong tree when you say that to me (I guess you wern'et talking specifically to me, but I thought you were) because it's not how I'm thinking.

i'll try everything once. well not everything-- but this one is intriguing enough.

is this a good book?

Oh c'mon, that's a bit much, now. I feel a bit dirty inside for pointing out the most obvious of things, which is that she only gets blamed for this and for that because she was married to Kurdt, and it's perfectly ok for a lot of males to be casually misogynistic. As usual.

courtney is a crazy opportunist bitch but she made great records and provides the world with entertainment via her being a fucking spectacle. she's gotten a lot of shit she doesn't deserve. give the woman a break, she's been through hell 26 times.

You know, if yr gonna preach something you might wanna start practicing it....

Just because men aren't given shit for it does not mean that it's acceptable for woman either. But yeah....I agree...the shit that Courtney gets is, for the most part, uncalled for. While being initiative and breaking the bounds, we have placed her in the category of being a hysterical woman. Most people now a days seem to only know her as Kurt's crazy wife...I've actually gotten shocked reactions when I've mentioned that she makes (...made) some pretty swank music. slut kiss girl won't you promise her smack, is she pretty on the inside baby, pretty ON THE BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

I think that's absolutely true. Although I think the shit she gets (which seems to come mostly from Nirvana and Sonic Youth fans) begs the question as to what that actual role is that she's acting outside of.

Yeah...totally!

The mindfuck that she produces sometimes makes me kinda wanna think of her as being a demented but awesome icon to watch and study.... even sometimes from a feminist perspective...

i also think that courtney actually had a lot of relevant critism about riot grrrl, but that's a whole other point entirely.

either way, her music is banging.

courtney was right on about riot girl. she defied traditional roles by SHOWING us that she could rock just as hard as the boys, kathleen and co. as much as i like them, were pretty much all talk. actions speak louder than words.

a lot of things people say/have said about her in a negative light may have been totally uncalled for but she has certainly put herself in a position to be talked shit on over the years.

Her brief association with the riot grrrl thing was a bit of an anomaly in terms of her career as a (w)hole. Riot Grrrl always struck me (maybe wrongly) as a movement designed to promote the role of women in alternative music. I tend to think that from the beginning though, Courtney Love's only real interest was in promoting herself. I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing (well I am, actually) but a lot of what she was associated with (even outside of Riot Grrrl) was very scene based, with a definite sense that you worked to promote that scene - which is certainly something that, say, Sonic Youth have done. I don't think Courtney Love was ever interested in any kind of scene promotion that didn't immediately, and overwhelmingly benefit her. Had she formed some kind of uber-self centred LA hair metal band, this would've not only been expected but completely acceptable according to the ideology of that scene. Within the alt rock scene of the early 90s though it was something to be frowned upon, which is why (despite the fact that she was hardly alone in using the scene ultimately to promote herself) i think her rep within that scene is now so low.

^yes

as kat bjelland said

"i like playing music. courtney likes being famous."

CL definitely had an agenda from the very beginning

did you notice the clever thing that I did with the word 'whole'?

yes. good boy.

Yes, I, for the most part, agree. Riot grrrl was also very politicized and CL was not - once again, she was all about herself, not "her sisters."

I thought that it was very on target what Courtney basically said "Great, you riot grrrls picked up instruments! Now learn how to friggin play them!"

Getting girls to feel comfortable playing is just one thing...but it really can't stop there. I get the feeling that the lack of talent and amount of talk in riot grrl may be a part of why so many people in this thread hated the movement. I personally think that getting girls to feel comfortable enough to show their faces and work together and start playing is only often a first step in the process of the amazing of an awesome rocker.

We already had this discussion. :confused:

Yeah, it's kind of insane how much her first two albums seem like they could see the future.

Haha, yes. Weren't they also seeing into the present though?

^^^ totally


She was right about that, but then again, she didn't even take her own advice, really. The only album she really played guitar on was their first one and she was good (When you could hear it since it was almost always pushed completely back in the mix). But later she relied on Erlandson (a MAN) to play the guitar, and then completely on CS.

The thing that pisses me off most about Courtney is that she is full of extremely smart, good ideas. But she never follows through with them. She gets distracted and gives up on them before they ever really come to fruition.