Don't forget Adele! Blaahaha!

Seriously though, I feel you. But personally I'd point to a few less populace names when arguing about the enduring power of the album.

DJ Koze is such a master craftsman of albums that his DJ Kicks mixes and label samplers play with the studied, finely tuned pacing and sequencing of Sgt. Pepper. Nicolas Jaar too. Ben Frost? Forget about it. That guy makes fully listenable opuses out of noise and lightning and fire and ice.

Chance the Rapper doesn't even MAKE "albums" but you wouldn't know it from listening to Acid Rap or Coloring Book. Mixtape, whatever. Those are albums in everything but name and price.

Car Seat Headrest -- who I think you'd love, since you seem to have a soft spot for '90s indie pop like Weezer -- is making albums of Fleetwood Mac level scope, and half of his discography is just SoundCloud and bandcamp zip files.

But yeah, certainly Beyoncé, her little sis, and Kendrick (without question Kendrick... in fact he may be the king of the "album" in the 2010s) and others are still doing it old school. I'd be remiss if I didn't mention Kanye (cause I haven't yet today)... but even when he deliberately tried to distance himself from the album format, he still ended up with the most memorable album of the year, hands down.

And Frank Ocean.
Even Gucci, who's determined to plow out as much material as possible, is closing out the year with THREE fully formed albums (plus a mixtape), with physical packages and everything. SO albums are still out there. They're still important.

Fuck, and David Bowie for shit's sake! Talk about an album with mass appeal and old school cultural reach and significance. I predict Blackstar will win Album of the year at the Grammys, btw.


I love albums. I'm never going to be a playlist guy.

i get what rob was saying, its true Illmatic is in the pantheon like Hendrix is, on name recognition alone. honestly i doubt too many kids today really listen to it

what he said was


1. I can't quantify how "overrated" something is, so won't try. But I disagree.

2. I think people today do still "give a shit."

3. I promise that "old school heads" care deeply about Illmatic. It might be why there have been two books written about this 9-song (10-track) album in the past few years, along with a film about its creation. Because people still care about it.

To be sure i haven't heard any new rappers reference or big up Illmatic neither heard any new shit that sounds influenced by it


yeah yeah but how much of that is nostalgia or reverence and how much is actually listening to that album on an consistent rotation? Has it become a museum piece I think is Rob's point and personally I think its a fair one

not to be a jerk, but you also don't listen to a lot of new rappers. Joey Bada$$ def sounds influenced by Nas/Illmatic for one. And obviously that goes for Pro Era.

I'd say that bits of A$AP Mob ("Trillmatic"!), Flatbush Zombies, and their peers especially in NYC are def still influenced by it.



I don't think that was his point, unless I took it wrong or he had trouble actually saying it. I mean saying that "old school heads" don't care, would to me mean that people who still listen to old school hip hop don't listen to that one album and see it as "overrated," and I totally disagree.

care to be a bit more specific? A quote, a specific track? Something other then more or less conjecture? I am not sneak dissing, legitimate question. Just because I don't listen to all new rap, doesn't mean I haven't heard enough to notice if something sounded like something as foundational as Illmatic!


I could be wrong, Rob is definitely grown enough to explain himself, but my interpretation of how Nas can be overrated is just that, while he was huge in his era, I just haven't seen the kind of lasting impact on a new generation, the way say Nirvana has. Young kids are talking about all kinds of new rap, young kids are talking about all kinds of great legendary rock bands, I just haven't overheard a conversation or seen a t-shirt or any kind of reference to Nas or Illmatic from the teenagers today.

As to the oldheads, same thing, while most of the people our age or slightly older certainly bumped Nas and Illmatic in its day, I haven't gotten into anyone's car or went to anyone's house or just heard a car passing by bumping that record in YEARS..

meanwhile I hear things like Tupac and Biggie routinely..

No rappers under 30 give a flying fuck about Illmatic.

why should they? It is meaningless in their world.

Hell, most young rappers these dayd don;t even fuck with Jay Z or Kanye! They are OLD, man! Nas is like grandpa's music, and NO ONE GIVES A FUCK ABOUT IT

Alright well i am losing interest in conversing...

You're wrong Rob. Maybe some dumbass kids don't know Illmatic, but there are plenty (PLENTY) of dumbass kids who do. Can't blame them, really. It's more than 20 years old. A lot of these rappers were pre-zygotic when that shit dropped. But the ones who care about hip-hop from a historical and social perspective (like Anderson. Paak, Kendrick, Chance, Homeboy Sabdman, Action Bronson, blah) all goddamn well know and love Illmatic and Tribe and Wu and the rest of the golden gods.

And I have no fucking idea why you think modern rappers don't fuck with Kanye. Jay, sure... he's a bit stuck to a previous era, but Kanye's still doing features with new bloods, still signing new artists that are blowing up. I know you don't like Kanye West but that man is ungodly influential, and still almost absurdly relevant. I'd say that even if I didn't like him.

Look around man. Look at the new kids on the block. If you can't see Kanye'a influence on Lil Uzi Vert you're not looking. Kanye is essentially the blueprint for Chance the Rapper, who is without question the leading name of the mixtape rappers. They've been on eachothwr's albums... hell, Kanye kinda broke Chance into the mainstream with ULB.

Schoolboy Q's biggest hit? THat Part, with (who?) fucking Kanye.
Young Thug? Named a song after Kanye, featured on a Kanye track, jumped onto Ye's MSG party and has had the biggest year of his career as a result.

Kendrick fucks with Kanye.
Travi$ Scott? A literal Kanye protégée, working for and with the man.
Future and Drake owe their careers to (who?) ... Kanye.
Partynextdoor? Oh, that dude's publicist mentioned Kanye by name as the only artist doing what PND could do.

Don't let those shit-colored glasses through which you view Mr. West blind you to the truth. Kanye West IS hip-hop and has been for over a decade. He is having a bigger influence THIS YEAR on up and comers than he's ever had before. Don't be a fool. You may hate him, but every rapper you like has constructed themselves around a little piece of Kanye West.

I won't even entertain a counter-argument. You're just wrong.

Also, perhaps the biggest influence on Kanye (who is the biggest influence on hip-hop)? Illmatic. Nas might be a caricature of his formerly self, but he helped lay the groundwork for the kind of transcendent rap albums that have elevated the genre from "rap" to "music," period. Without qualification.

I'd even go so far as saying that without Illmatic there would be no MBDTF, and no good kid, mAAd city.

You can talk all you want about how this dumb sit rapper doesn't fuck with Nas or care about Illmatic, but all that proves is what we already know: that they're dumb shits who have no appreciation for their own history. They all owe their careers to Illmatic, and if they can't realize that, they're vacant little pussies who -- like all American young adult males -- think life started with them.

They'll learn.

Uh... he did name a specific track.

No offense, but you're really just showing us how little you actually know about modern rap with your argument.

no offense but don't act like one track is enough to say Illmatic is still big. indeed i meant specific track from each of the rappers he dropped..

was there a quote?
for example i can quote three or four specific references from recent Game tracks repping Nas and Illmatic. see you think im trying to diss all the time when sometimes i am genuinely asking. maybe if you came off your rap high horse you could help a brother out

I said no offense and meant it.

You asked for a specific song RIGHT after he named a specific song ("Trillmatic" by A$AP Mob). It's just that by asking the question you showed that you wouldn't know a specific song anyway. Know what I mean?

Also, I know you love Game (he's like, one of the two hip hop artists you actually like and don't think is shit), but ... Game's been around forever, and he's doing great, but I kinda get the impression that you are only really into one kind of hip-hop, and it's a near 30-year old style, so I'm not sure you're much of an authority on what is or isn't influential or significant in genres hat aren't LA gangster rap from '88-'98.

Also, you're saying you can think of so many references to Nas right off the top of your head... from just one artist. That's a really persuasive argument AGAINST what Rob is saying.

I'm not on a high horse. But NR knows his hip hop. I've gone through his cd collection myself. It makes mine (the hip-hop section of mine) look like a one of those little children's libraries in the waiting room of a dentist's office, and I'm no slouch or yongblood either.

Really wasn't trying to be a dick. You've said yourself that you don't like much of anything that's new, and your taste in hip hop is by your own admission very limited. Nothing wrong with that, but it's probably best not to challenge someone like NR who's been collecting this shit obsessively -- from all over the spectrum of rap-- for a good 25+ years. *shrug*

Hey man, that's not what I said. You're the one who asked for a track. I just pointed out that you didn't realize you'd already been given one. I never made the claim that one reference = evidence of Illmatic still being "big" ... I'm just saying, you had what you asked for before you asked for it. Don't turn that around on me and act like I was placing undue significance on something.

Stay on track, bro. ;)

i told you, i meant a track from each of the rappers he mentioned. see the edit please

Ok, well moving on then...

Here's literally the first thing that came up when I went to google and typed "references to Illmatic joey badass" (all I could think of was "World Domination" for Joey, but I wanted to answer your question)

Top 20 References to Illmatic

This is from 2014, in honor of the 20 year anniversary of the album, but it's a decent start. I didn't go through the whole list, but I saw rappers as recent as Casey Veggies, J Cole, Childish Gambino, Vic Mensa, Big Sean, G-Easy and figured this would serve until NR gets back.

When Kanye, Jay Z, Blu, Eminem, Odd Future, J Cole and gobs of other motherfuckers over 22 years have all mentioned your album, you've had a hell of an impact.

I also found a nice little piece published by the New Yorker around this time championing Illmatic as "special," even among the myriad classic albums of that era (Wu, Jay, Big, blah, blah, blah) but I figured... who the fuck cares what some shitass New Yorker writer thinks of a hip-hop album anyway? So I have omitted that.

And for the record, I actually am not that big of a Nas fan! I only like about ½ of his albums. Love his voice, loved him at his peak (he was one of the few rappers that made a young Nirvana-drunk Severian stand up and take notice of the intelligence and authenticity of his lyrics and delivery) but I kind of parted ways with him when I got really into Jay. By the time Jay dropped the Black Album, I thought it was damn generous to even call what happened between them a feud. Jay KO'd Nas, not with beef verses, but with increasingly good albums. Jay went up, Nas went down.

Point is, I'm not hanging on Nasir's dick. But there's no way to make a sane argument that Illmatic isn't a landmark album that changed hip-hop forever.

cool that is a fair answer. i never said o agreed or disagreed with Rob and i also did say i was speculating an interpretation of what rob was saying as "illmatic isn't relevant today" which iis what i think he even originally said. hence why i asked for specific references from several contemporary rappers.

i have no strong opinion one way or the other and i was never dissing Nas btw

also i think you missed the point of why i mentioned Game, its because he is irrelevant so his references of Nas are somewhat an anachronism

I kinda get what Rob is saying.. those kids who be bumpin' Future, Lil Uzi Vert, Travis Scott, etc religiously probably don't give a shit about Illmatic and other 90's hip hop classics.

Oh yeah, Purple Rain is finally getting the deluxe treatment. Will be out early 2017. Can't wait to hear the remaster + bonus tracks that accompany it.

Prince's "Adore" (the closing track on Sign 'o the Times) directly influenced D'Angelo's Voodoo.. just listened to the album a couple of days and it finally hit me. Voodoo really has Adore written all over it, damn.

You're right, I did miss that point. That was not made clear at all by the way you said it. Never would have guessed that that was your point without your saying so.

But I get it. Not that I actually think Game is irrelevant. He's "past his prime" in the simplest sense of the phrase, but he's dropping albums that are getting decent reviews and inspiring a lot of sideline, old fart hip-hop fans (like us!) to talk about him at length. So he may not be Drake, but I think he's actually
relevant than Nas currently is.

Thing about Nas is that... great as he is (and he is a great mc, truly) it's not Nas the mc who changed the face of hip hop. It's Illmatic. The album was a force of nature... it took a while for it to rub off on people, but when it did it left a mark. Nas himself has always struggled to recapture that fire, and his ego and intellect have been at war for decades, preventing him from achieving creative consistency in his albums. Nas isn't a legend in the way Pac and BIG are... you were very right about that bit... BUT Illmatic is a more important album than anything either of those dudes released. And you know I'm not hating on either of them when I say that. Pac and Big are legends, legendary voices, still inspiring the fuck out of people. With Nas, Illmatic is the legend. Nas is the poor guy tasked with living his entire life in that album's shadow.

Am I making sense? Hope I'm not sounding like a dickass again (I just heard the phrases "dickass" and "shitass" the other day and they're so fucking dumb, but I love them!).

Probably not, but that doesn't mean Illmatic isn't still...matic.... LOL!

Maybe it's a regional thing, but the NYC rappers still name check that record. And its Sonic influence is still being felt.

Rob was wrong about Kanye though. New rappers not Fucking with Kanye... pssshhh! That's like the punchline of a bad joke.

A few crazy statements that are totally backasswards and false as saying next-gen rappers don't care about Kanye West:
• Obama has no impact on decision 2016.
• People don't like Star Wars
• Saved by the Bell is trending somewhere

I'd argue that kids who were bumping the likes of Lil Jon and Soulja Boy a decade ago didn't care about Illmatic either.

Illmatic was always for those who appreciate the more intellectual and technical side of rapping, and are into poetry and storytelling, as well as jazzy boom bap production.

Believe it or not, there are just about as many kids who actually respect the legacy of hip hop and delve into the past as those who simply like to "turn up" to a bass heavy banger. Not all of them are braindead druggies who just wanna hear some mindless party music. They do appreciate the album form. Hence why Kendrick and J. Cole albums sell about 3 times more than Future and Travis albums without trying to cater to the radio and the clubs.

Illmatic still serves as the golden standard. 20 years later, every new huge, notable rap release still draws comparsions to it immediately by blogs and fans alike.

Khaled's album was one of the highest selling hip hop releases of the year and it featured a Nas solo track titled "Nas Album Done", enough said.

Kanye is even twice as relevant because he appeals to both crowds. He has something for everyone. Like Sev pointed out, the diversity of his crowd is amazing.

I was going to mention Khaled but.. eh... I don't really like to talk about Khaled

You're right though. For all the bitching I do about "kids" there's a lot of young folks who are more "serious" about hip-hop being "serious" than I've ever been in my life. They sometimes take it to absurd extremes, acting like any rap that's "fun" is just automatically dumb. (This is not the case with any genre; indeed sometimes "dumb" is what makes music brilliant, as most folks who love punk understand.. see Spacemen 3, Butthole Surfers, Ramones... each a little "dumb" in their own way).

For instance, I know a lot of younger hip-hop folks who just abhor anything that's popular, and see it as a betrayal of hip-hop's political and social power and purpose. They'll sing the praises of MellowMusicGroup and BLU, or Jedi Mind Tricks and Immortal Technique. Of course, these kids are missing out on most of the best hip-hop music ever made, but it's encouraging to see that not everyone just wants to get blazed and turnt or whatever. Some folks actually wait for Takib joints ... still!!

These kinds of rap fans are the ones more likely to revere Illmatic.
Earl Sweatshirt is a good example too. He approaches hip hop songcraft from a "poetic" angle, and that's a Nas move.

ERIK B. & RAKIM ARE REUNITING!!!

:eek:

Wow. WOW.

I mean, this is nowhere near as big a deal for me personally as ATCQ releasing a new album recording with Phife before his death (RIP), but it's still pretty big news. HUGE news.

And they want a Rae Sremmurd feature. Legendary moves.

nxworries is so fucking sweet, pure candy.

also for the record have never seen young people going more nuts at a show than nas performing illmatic in full a couple years ago, he's put out some shite records since then (arguably all of them are pretty dry) but he's a rarity in hip hop in that he can actually carry a show on his own and absolutely owns a sound that is still being like directly aped nowadays even, probably one of the few records in hip hop that ostensibly won't date. think he still maintains a much greater presence than some of you guys are crediting...

Nice chime in!

So Drake dropped new songs from an upcoming project.. claims it's gonna be more of a compilation than a cohesive album.

http://pitchfork.com/news/69247-drak...e-life-listen/

"Fake Love" is such an obvious attempt from Drake to have his own "Real Friends"..

What do you think about the "Atrocity Exhibition" album by Danny Brown? I don't listen to hip-hop much, though that album is the bomb to my ears.

Nobody seems to be super into it, but I like it a lot. Possibly the third best rap album of the year.

Louder likes it well enough but for some reason doesn't give much of a shit, so it's clearly slipping to the wayside for him.

I don't think NR or Rob have even said word one about it.

Me, I like it. A lot more than I thought I would actually.

Gonna have to take your word on that. I'm not listening to this shit.

For a practiced actor (and by practiced I mean try-hard acting coach having motherfucker), who enjoys playing silly little word games with the song he (and he alone, certainly no ghost writers!) writes, Drake is not an eloquent fellow. That little paragraph reads like a thought that has just popped into someone's head. Downright formless.

The best thing Drake has ever been a part of is "Fuckin Problems," and "Tuesday" (which he wasn't really a part of.) I can smell the change coming in the air. Drake's time is almost over. This is probably why he's scrambling to put out something new 6 months after the last one. If he gives the world 2 years of silence, he'll be over.

I religiously dont' give a fuck about Travis Scott, Future, and Lil Uzi Amughe. all soulja boy post 808 just on bandwagons and wearing tight pants. garbage soulless shit.

fuck those dumbassholes. im glad im old enough too have experienced perfection in hip hop. unlike rock n roll, it's not fun when it's dumb. now, it's like busting a nut and throwing a wiping rag on the bitch and telling her to clean it up. they don' knowt how to make love do the beat. they fuck too fast. all talk, no sensuality to prove their manhood.

I have no alliance with hip hop. I don't care if it advances or not. or what's new. it's like an old man loving the Beatles and not caring what came after. im content with that.

I feel you actually. I mean, I can relate to your position. I'm not as content to just listen to he same '90s records over and over, and I think things have happened in the 2000s and 2010s that have made hip-hop better as a whole than it was before. But I still appreciate your position. I kinda view indie rock that way. Can't remember the last time something flat out blew my mind, and really added to the genre's history and legacy, and I'd rather listen to Sonic Youth or Sebadoh or Fugazi than whatever the hell is going on these days.

But you're wrong about one thing: hip-hop most certainly is (or can be) EXTREMELY FUN when it's dumb. There's a whole lot of camp and cheese in the Wu catalog. Kool Keith got dumb as hell and it was intentional and part of his charm. When a good dumb banger comes out, there's genuine good times to be had listening to that shit.

Ok, so Louder -- I'm sure you saw the pitchfork feature about Pusha T v. Drake. I didn't honestly realize there was a rivalry bubbling, and I'm not particularly interested in Pusha wasting his time on Drake disses instead of making the albums he's promised he would make.

But it's nice to hear a super populace mag like Pitchfork taking a solid stance about how silly Drake's burns of Pusha are, how rooted in fantasy they are, how Pusha's an objectively better lyricist and Rapper. None of it needs to be said to folks like us, but as Pitchfork pointed out, VIEWS was a monster pop hit, while the endlessly superior Darkest Before Dawn barely cracked the top 20.


Kinda begs the question though... How will Kanye feel about THIS. Drake clapping back at acid I for saying some crazy shit is one thing. Drake bashing the president of GOOD Music, and Kanye's most trusted protege should be quite another.

I feel like Kanye considers himself to be sort of "above" hip-hop feuds. Always eager to make amends when shit gets ugly. But a public disavowal of Drake might be just what the doctor ordered.