the question was sort of rhetorical (to myself)

& to answer yours,

no

Oh. Well, I did try. Maybe the key to winning is in posting the same thing, over and over and over, does that win an argument?

What does rhetorical question mean?

for reiterative purposes, i'm reposting some thoughts because there's a lot of namby-pambyisms floating around this extremely convoluted thread:

I'm not against immigration. Only a fool would be. I acknowledge & fervently & firmly believe that immigration, i.e. the melting pot, is what helped make this country great. My mother came to America from Italy and my father from Ireland only in the last century. But, it should be done legally. The bureaucracy for gaining legal citizenship should be streamlined & made altogether more accessible for those that would like to call America home, but in this post 9/11 day & age, that's gonna be a tough nut to crack.
They are not citizens. If the corporate pigs were not benefiting from illegal mexican workers being here in America then you better believe that the National Guard would be called out & the protesters would be forced by tank escort to march right back to Mexico. So are illegal immigrants hurting America? Yes, in these exponentiating numbers, yes they are; they are also hurting themselves. There's many a rural town where the plant or whatever hires only illegal immigrants now & this is one reason why Bush has had negative job growth. Then again, it's also ultimately the responsibility of Bush as the head of the executive branch of government & his appointed Attorney General to enforce the RICO law. Gaining national attention lately was a woman in Dalton (the carpet capital of the world as it's called in Georgia) that could not get a job without being able to speak fluent spanish. That's why the regulations on immigration are there in the first place. It seems all of you that jumped on Rhys are wearing some nice rose-colored glasses about the whole issue. Turning our heads the other way at illegal immigration at these levels only increases societal problems. The easiest to discuss is the cut & dried case of labor & employment issues. Illegal immigrants contribute to a culture of indentured servitude & do a disservice to themselves & their own potential by not becoming legal American citizens first. By being illegal aliens, they minimize their abilty to achieve prosperity by lawful means & they subjugate themselves to any number of employer labor abuses. The most obvious of which is that they cannot expect to be guaranteed regular hours, overtime pay or a minimum wage.
None of this should be too tough to figure out if one actually cares about the people at the heart of this issue instead of just waxing together in unison being all "peace & love & understanding, dude" which basically amounts to complete & utter mental masturbation (Rob, !@#$%!, Krastian, nature scene, etc.); I fail to see how it accomplishes or solves anything or serves to even further a real discussion.

It is the promise of free & easy widespread employment (even without citizenship) that has lured immigrants to come to America to seek prosperity. This post will not win me a lot of support, because the truth rarely does. In the post, I am only addressing what can be done for the illegal immigrants that work jobs for which they should be required to have actual documentation instead of the fake documentation that they provide; there are always gonna be illegal immigrants in this country that work either fringe, odd or private jobs that do not require them to have documentation. That's just the way it is & the way it will always be & that's fine by me because it isn't like there is an abundance of these types of jobs. What I aim to express concerns jobs with major companies that have over 25 employees. In 1996, the RICO racketeering act was updated to include employers that hire illegal immigrants. It is their duty by law to adhere to this very serious federal mandate. It is the executive branch of the government with the President of the United States at its head that is responsible for enforcing the laws in this country. You do the math. It is the responsibility of the companies that are illegally hiring the illegal immigrants to cease & desist & it is also the responsibility of the U.S. Government to enforce the law of the United States. The companies make a candyass bullshit complaint that they are given faulty information & that the federal government should provide for the employment verification process to assure the employer that the applicant's information is legitimate.

But what will happen over this recent political flare-up concening illegal immigration? Will the government get tough on companies that make a practice of hiring illegals? No, absolutely not; that could hurt their precious bottom line. The immigrants that have been here illegally for a certain amount of time will be allowed to become naturalized. This is already happening. This'll be used as a hot button political issue. This is already happening too. The length of time for naturalization will be shortened probably (only increasing the same problem) & there will be a lot of political hot air puffed about concerning "getting tougher" on immigration law, but things will more or less stay the same & the illegal immigrant & mexican population of the United States will continue to balloon until the problems increase & reach yet another critical level.

Illegal immigrants cannot vote. They have no incentive or even legal right to be part of the political process. I believe I've just illustrated yet another way that being illegal is not only a disservice to the illegal alien, but also to society as a whole. If anyone sees racial bias in any of my posts on this subject then it is quite likely they that have some issues with racism, because I'm merely stating the objective truth of the matter in a layman's fashion.

all borders should be open.
people have free will. theycan live where they want. it is called freedom.
building walls is fascist. nazi germany, stalinist russia, etc.
USA is a fascist country now.

where's your homecoming queen, daydream believer?

this is what I wrote at the top of my post:

I'm not against immigration. Only a fool would be. I acknowledge & fervently & firmly believe that immigration, i.e. the melting pot, is what helped make this country great. My mother came to America from Italy and my father from Ireland only in the last century. But, it should be done legally. The bureaucracy for gaining legal citizenship should be streamlined & made altogether more accessible for those that would like to call America home, but in this post 9/11 day & age, that's gonna be a tough nut to crack.

& here is another part again, in case you were too lame to read it all:

Turning our heads the other way at illegal immigration at these levels only increases societal problems. The easiest to discuss is the cut & dried case of labor & employment issues. Illegal immigrants contribute to a culture of indentured servitude & do a disservice to themselves & their own potential by not becoming legal American citizens first. By being illegal aliens, they minimize their abilty to achieve prosperity by lawful means & they subjugate themselves to any number of employer labor abuses. The most obvious of which is that they cannot expect to be guaranteed regular hours, overtime pay or a minimum wage.
None of this should be too tough to figure out if one actually cares about the people at the heart of this issue instead of just waxing together in unison being all "peace & love & understanding, dude" which basically amounts to complete & utter mental masturbation (Rob, !@#$%!, Krastian, nature scene, etc.); I fail to see how it accomplishes or solves anything or serves to even further a real discussion. Illegal immigrants cannot vote. They have no incentive or even legal right to be part of the political process. I believe I've just illustrated yet another way that being illegal is not only a disservice to the illegal alien, but also to society as a whole.

the only walls the nazis had problems with were the ones they were going OVER as they marched to France.

just sayin'.

and, why does Australia never get called fascist when it comes to their immigration laws? they have the most strict laws of all about importing yrself.

does the ocean just not count as a wall?

And what about people with fenced yards?;)

Yeah, Australia's been cuckoo for cocoa puffs for a good while now...lots of neo-cons in power down under.

I must spead, floatingslowly...I must spread...

atari:

eat shit, motherfucker.

Are you and Rob competing to see who can have the lamest post in this topic?

Oh, and where's this little guy:D that you love to use so much?

yeah. fuck you and your redneck mother. the last thing i want to see early in the morning is messages from you. go stalk somebody else.

I just came on and found this incoherent babble.

You people need to realize that sometimes you don't have the answer.

Oh, did I upset a clique? This isn't high school, bud, and yes, there is an answer. A rather obvious one. The answer has been on the books since 1996. Next time, think about taking your own advice.

Clinton updated the RICO racketeering act to include employers that knowingly hire illegal immigrants. This is a law that the Bush administration has failed to enforce, on purpose, because it hurts some of his most prolific contributors' (human rights abusers) bottom line. Why do you think the majority of legal Mexican immigrants voted for Bush/Cheney and vote for Republicans most of the time?

So all the talk you hear of this plan and that plan to "deal with illegal immigration" is a bunch of political hot air to punch a decisive hot button issue. All the government needs to do (just like with companies illegally dumping and violating environmental laws) is just enforce the damn law. And as the executive branch, that's what the Bush administration is supposed to be doing.

my better judgement is telling me to "stay out of this thread", but I really want to find out why I'm a bad guy for not supporting illegal immigration.

I'm pro-immigration, but giving illegals a free pass pisses in the face of everybody that worked hard to do it the right way.

since we are on the subject, why pay for that new TV set when you can steal it?

Well, the whole process is very discriminatory. The controls are in place that refuse a lot of deserving candidates for citizenship. This also needs to be addressed by government.

But the main aspect of the issue that needs to be addressed is that companies whose stock-in-trade is cheap Mexican labor need to suffer the full penalty of the law. The tools are there for self-regulation. Companies that violate RICO know what they are doing, because it's pretty damn easy to figure out if documentation is faked if any kind of effort is made.

Are you sure? Because all the self-righteous condescension (not a rare thing here, I know) sure makes it sound like it. Even that sarcastic opener to your reply doesn't make me want to listen to whatever argument you're putting forward, regardless of truth.

This whole "I have the answers and anybody that disagrees is inferior" mentality is old and childish. You accuse me of having a high school clique mentality but you are the ones carrying on like the anti-social smartass mocking the classroom during a book discussion. If your points carry no water without you treating everyone else like children, then shut the fuck up.


That's my two cents, I'm done with this thread.

people go where the work is. there are hundreds of thousands if not MILLIONS of jobs in the USA that so-called "regular" americans do not want to do and will not do. Construction, lawn maintenance, kitchen work, road maintenance and construction, roofing. These are HARD fucking jobs that people come here ad work their asses off on to build your houses and your schools and your roads and your churches and stock your supermarkets with produce.
Immigrants, illegal or otherwise, pay every single tax there is except income tax. They pay payroll taxes, they pay sales taxes (most of our taxes are taken as sales tax), they pay property taxes, etc.
the whole immigration issue is a RED HERRING people. it is a meaningless and moot argument.
It keeps the popuylace concerned with something other than the massive war spending, the immense never before reached deficit, the massive trade gap because we do not build anything in the USA anymore, the 45 MILLION citizens without any form of health insurance, et etc etc

Damn, that's just the lamest argument and so many people regurgitate it without thinking. What's stopping them from doing the menial job as a legal immigrant? Oh, yeah, that's right, if they were legal, they'd want a better job. So, what you're saying is that Mexicans should always buck the system to make sure they stay second-class citizens and hold on to their menial jobs...because we sure as hell don't want to do it?

Thank goodness the Feds are starting to crack down on this bullshit.
thank the Feds for throwing society a bone

First off, it's a myth. People will want the jobs. Secondly, take away the illegal immigrant cheap labor and companies will start to pay better wages for low-paying jobs across the board as they should already be doing. And that's good for everyone.


again:
here are always gonna be illegal immigrants in this country that work either fringe, odd or private jobs that do not require them to have documentation. That's just the way it is & the way it will always be & that's fine by me because it isn't like there is an abundance of these types of jobs. What I aim to express concerns jobs with major companies that have over 25 employees. In 1996, the RICO racketeering act was updated to include employers that hire illegal immigrants. It is their duty by law to adhere to this very serious federal mandate. It is the executive branch of the government with the President of the United States at its head that is responsible for enforcing the laws in this country. You do the math. It is the responsibility of the companies that are illegally hiring the illegal immigrants to cease & desist & it is also the responsibility of the U.S. Government to enforce the law of the United States. The companies make a candyass bullshit complaint that they are given faulty information & that the federal government should provide for the employment verification process to assure the employer that the applicant's information is legitimate.

atari, the united states allows only around 90 thousand legal immigrants a year. Most of them are middle class or higher, eduucated people.
the visas they grant are applied to their relatives as well, so if you have someone who has legal immigration he also gets one of the 90 thou visas for their wife or their husband or children.

corporatios in this country run on the sweat and toil of these illegal laborers (many are NOT immigrants as they only work here seasonaly) They are the ones that hold back any true enforcement, like you said atari. excoriate them for their bullshit, not the poor people who are just trying to make a living.

I agree for the most part.
That's why I wrote only minutes ago:

And that's why I keep going back to RICO and a complete lack of enforcement, because it's the companies that mass hire illegals that have made this into a societal concern through their greed.

But let's not get carried away with ourselves. The fact remains that far too many of the "poor people who are just trying to make a living" fall into the trap of gang activity.
That's why we should thank the Feds for throwing society a bone. Although, I'm being somewhat (hopefully obviously) facetious, because, after all, it's supposed to be their job to enforce the law in the first place.

I'm not sure if the US has an equiv. problem, but a major immigration issue facing Britain right now is the disolution of borders within the EU, which effectively means that any person from an EU State (many of which are incredibly poor) are able to settle permanently in any other EU country. Needless to say its the richer EU states offering the best welfare programmes that are encouraging most immigrants. This is having a massive effect on various (primarily blue collar) industries, where immigrants are prepared to work for a lower wage, put in more hours, and seem uninterested in seeking Union membership. In the 1970s, annual immigration into Britain reached 27,000. It is now estimated to be approx 290,000. This doesn't include the estimated 50,000 illegal immigrants that enter Britain each year, and doesn't even begin to tackle the high amount of asylum seekers annuallyapplying for citizenship - of which around 60% have so far had their applications rejected but only 1 in 4 are believed to have left. And in case these figures seem low, remember that in terms of land mass, Britain is roughly the size of Florida and is according to official world population sources 12 times more overcrowded than the US.

Furthermore, arguments that this level of immigration benefits the UK economy are debatable, with some estimates calculating a deficit in GDP, others a modest surpluss of approx 4p per head per week. However the big issue in Britain does not seem to be about GDP, but rather decreases in wage rates, the rise of a more casual workforce as well as the trend towards inner city segregation amongst ethnic groups.

Leaving aside asylum seekers who I believe can't morally be capped in terms of numbers entering the country, I think that it's essential that the amount of purely economic (and at this point entirely legal) immigrants entering Britain needs to be capped at a more realistic annual figure.

If the UK doesn't like immigrants, then why did it attempt to take over the whole world, further why does everybody have to speak english? See, the problem with the US and the UK is that they want to have their cake of globalization and eat it too (no global immigration)

If the tables were turned and 80% of illegal immigrants came from canada instead of latin america by way of mexico, wodl there be such a bullshit uproar?

I'm in favour of immigration, believing it to be an essential part of Britain's economic and cultural welfare. I just think it's naive to believe that an unchecked number of people entering any country does that nation's stability much good.

Yes Britain once colonised two thirds of the globe and it still, quite rightly, maintains a level of responsibility to those countries even after they'd gained their independence - with the exception of the US, ironically enough given the supposed 'special relationship' we have. Further more the vast majority of EU citizens relocating in Britain are not from ex-Commonwealth countries at all, but rather those of the former Soviet bloc which gained EU membership in 2004.

Yes, the Americans hated the Irish and the Germans long before they hated Asians and hispanics... xenophobia becomes full on racism in the context of popular American culture..

the irish and germans and italians were hated for being poor and catholic.
the mexicans and latin americans are also poor and mostly catholic.
hmmmmmmmm

what do they call it in Sudan and Rwanda?

Haven't you worn that card out yet?

what's more, I want to know why somebody who is all for leaving America to go Africa isn't pro-anti-immigration.

wouldn't harsher immigration laws actually protect yr brothers and sisters from being sucked into the death machine that is EVIL-BAD-EVIL AMERIKKKA??

Most of western Europe is experiencing similar problems concerning this so-called new "phenomenon",
and I ask myself if stopping them from working illegally will solve this crisis.

Here's an article dating back to May this year.

EU to crack down on employment of illegal immigrants
21-05-2007

Justice and Security Commissioner Franco Frattini has drawn up a plan to increase the number of companies that are annually inspected for the employment of illegal immigrants. Frattini is concerned about the immigrants' welfare and the stream of around 300,000 foreigners entering Europe's shadow economy every year.
In his announcement on 16 May 2007, Commissioner Frattini said that companies will face more spot checks of their employees' work papers as part of a crackdown on illegal immigration across the EU. The worst offending bosses could face criminal charges. According to Frattini, less than three per cent of companies were checked in the EU every year. Each country should now make sure it checks at least ten per cent.
Commision Vice-President Franco Frattini said: "It is vital to acknowledge that the near certainty of finding illegal work in EU member states is the main driving force behind illegal immigration from third countries. (...) We must therefore be firm and committed and act as one to vigorously combat this phenomenon by creating similar penalties for employers and ensuring effective enforcement."
As it stands, 19 of the 27 EU Member States have criminal sanctions against those who employ illegal entrants. In the UK, bosses face fines and a new law will introduce jail sentences of up to two years. Commissioner Fratini, however, wants to ensure that errant employers face more consistent penalties, because legislation and enforcement rates vary widely across the EU. Harmonised jail sentences, although being considered, were not touted at the Wednesday announcement.
Behind the proposal is a desire to reduce exploitation of undocumented immigrants and the "pull" factor that drives illegal entry. Mr Frattini also believes that the employment of illegal immigrants distorts competition.
However, it is far from certain that the draft legislation will be successfully transposed into EU law, with several of Frattini's fellow commissioners questioning whether it is an appropriate measure.
In addition, the plan could see the EU move into the sensitive field of proposing criminal law, traditionally the closely guarded remit of the 27 Member States.
Source: EurActiv

One thing is for sure, putting up high fences or having coastguards patrolling up and down our coasts has only made them more determined to find a better life. I think that if we helped them help themselves in their own countries, they wouldn't feel compelled to come here in the first place.

I'd also like to say that there are tons of illegal Europeans, Americans etc in other countries all over the world, living under the same conditions. What should be done about them?

down in the streets, they call it murder....

although I agree that the problem needs to be fixed "at home", not many sovereign nations really like being told how to run their country (and I don't think that we should).

if these countries are so bad that people are leaving in droves, there's a good chance that monetary fixes will only be spent on the corrupt and privileged few.

strong-arming them to comply is how "police actions" occur.

moral: there's really no good way to solve the problem.

harsher immigration laws tend to be enforced in ways that hurt people much more then if they were not there at all... and yes, I wish people would stop coming to the United States. I wish that the myth of the streets being paved of gold would stop being perpetuated. I wish somebody would tell these people out there that this place is a war-zone, with thousands of dead folks on the streets every year (prove me wrong, i dare you to open up pandora's box of contemporary America and throw up all yr sins).... but alas, big brother tells them a different story all together. one which perhaps you still cling to in belief. I am not so naive...

the US population is shrinking steadily. people in america are having far les children than people in the rest of the world. without immigration of some kind our country will suffer a deep collapse of manpower as soon as the 40-50 million baby boomers all retire.

Mexican chicks are HOT

I would love to see the crime figures broken down into which groups commit the largest percentage of which crimes

Lets see exactly who is committing all those thousands of murders you refer to

And how many of them are illegal immigrants

Anyone know if those stats are available?

In the UK they stopped breaking crime statistics on the basis of ethnicity when it was found that 73% of violent crime was committed by 23% of the population

Funny that........

do not attempt to put thoughts into my head.

I'm just saying that here, yr "logic" is failing you.

on one hand, you wish you could leave this country, on the other, you want open borders for the "ethnic minorities" to come in (en mass) as they please.

let me out! let them in!!

since you are so passionate about the evil that awaits the newcomers, maybe you should be investing yr time into convincing others to "stay out" than bemoaning the attempts of others to do so?

unless, of course, yr motives are purely selfish. maybe you are just more deserving than they are...



quoted for truth.

and for the record, my brother's wife's family are all legal immigrants.

I'm not necessarily talking about carelessly giving them money, which we already do. It's about creating healthy foreign businesses with decent jobs and normal wages. That would boost their economies and make a lot of them want to stay. Instead, we move in, pay them shit, and make a profit from their hard labor.

The way they are being treated in our countries, is the same way they are being treated in theirs.

i just read an article the other day where this small town somewhere (connecticut?) started running out the "illegal" immigrants from their municipality.

to everyone's surprise (in the town, that is) when the immigrants left their economy collapsed, stores had to shut down, and they were unable to find workers to do all kinds of jobs.

ah, it was new jersey-- i found the link to a miami herald reposting of the article...

http://www.sunherald.com/editorials/story/159481.html

i'd love to stay & discuss but i have to get off the iternet & work like a mexican.

I agree with you. I'm just not sure I see a "real-world" fix.

governments are monumentally inefficient (and sometimes [edit: often] corrupt).

however, the problem is too large for individuals to tackle (with much hope of success).

what we need right now is an alien invasion force to bring the world together (pardon my pseudo-Reaganism here).

And of course, there's no doubt you are correct with this assessment and all the flak people give you in the face of what should be common sense is nothing more than blowhard blowback. Now Rob is even playing the race card; the one leg you had to stand on just collapsed, Rob.

The card does nothing more than try to stifle intelligent debate and is most frequently used when the card player has run out of intelligent, valid or real points to make

Why dont people try using the full deck for a change?