When it comes down to the question of who has had the most influence over the longest period of time, the answer is Kanye West, though. There really had not ever been another artist in the history of the genre whose prime had lasted 12 years, and spanned 9 critically acclaimed hit albums.

Not even OutKast quite managed that, as their early work was pretty street, and they didn't start flippin' scripts until after they really caught some mainstream success. Tribe had a pretty perfect flow of albums, but none of them were as crazy popular as any of West's. 2pac sold tons of albums but the poor guy died before he could really move on the next level as an artist.

Kanye has defied the laws of hip-hop, whether you like him or not. And I'm only putting Tribe and Pav ahead of him because they influenced him so much. I think he's probably going to have to retire from releasing solo albums soon, or he'll just be tempting fate. He could still make music as a producer, but I'd rather see him go out on a high note than push on until he's dry.

What singing and R&B bullshit was there to take away from hip-hop in 1985?

Yeah, they're hugely influential, but more culturally than musically. Sorry.

Look at the other artists we all agree are influential: Pac, Tribe, OutKast, Kanye, Wu... Do you hear RUN DMC in any of their music? They were of course a culturally influential force, and the first rap superstars, but their influence is different than that of the others. They were instrumental in brining hip-hop into the cultural limelight, and they defined early hip-hop fashion. But so did Grandmaster Flash. Ten years later, hip hop had completely rejected their model, though. They were part of a specific time and place. They belong on a list of the most influential hip-hop artists of all time, certainly, but now that hip-hop has evolved so much, their influence has lessened while the influence of ATCQ, OutKast, 2pac, etc. has only grown greater.

MC Hammer probably belongs on a list of the most influential hip-hop artists too. Like... A top 100 list. And I just believe that Run was too primordial. They're like the Buddy Holly of hip-hop. Influential as hell, but then the Beatles and Dylan came along.

Sev, you really need to bone up on Hip Hop history. RUN DMC were the first to take it away from the disco/dance/R&B basis for their samples and music. Go listen to Whodini, early Kurtis Blow, Furious Five, Sugarhill Gang, Fat Boys/Disco Boys.....

Not like Michael Jackson and YOU KNOW IT. Just stop.. I mean seriously. Just stop it. MJ is a cultural force that makes Kanye look loke some dive bar amateur.

Basically you sound like these Golden State Warriors fans that can't understand why no one in a million years thinks they're better than Jordan's Bulls.

No one gives a shit bout Kanye. They really don't.

His wife is more a cultural icon than he is.

I just defended then shit out of MJ. Stop yr crying. Acting like I don't know MJ was the shit. And I already admitted you were right (Ye can't dance, he too chubby)

If there's no MJ of rap, or you're going to get all whiny about someone saying there is, then we need to stop saying there's a Beatles of rap, or a Nirvana of rap. I could be a bitchass too and be like, how dare you say ye's the Lou Reed of rap? NOBODY IS THE LOU REED OF ANYTHING!

If one legend is eligible for comparison, they all should be. And if I'm agreeing with you, you shouldn't spazz ;)

Well, that's just not true. If our culture even still has icons, Kanye West is absolutely one of them, for good or ill.

I don't need to bone up on any of that shit. It was precedent setting, but in my opinion the influence was more cultural than musical. I just think that the big rappers that came later had a more lasting and sustained impact on hip hop, but I don't feel super strongly about it. In fact, Run DMC's low placement was one of the things that pissed me off about the TimeOut list.

So, whatever. Swap out Wu-Tang for Run if you want. Fine by me. Nobody's saying they're not legendary.

And Sugarhill Gang was totally influential. "Rapper's Delight" is probably the most influential song in hip hop history. But that's what they're known for, and that's all they're known for by many. In fact I don't think many modern rappers are even aware of their existence, as that's something I'm taking into account.

MJ is a different caliber of legend than any others. Indeed i believe my entire point is there is no MJ of anything but MJ. Get it now? I ain't mad at you, but im gonna call it out everytime like i was MJ's press agent. I know i give you a hard time about Kanye but its because sometimes you have a tendency to go over the top. I thought Lou Reed being Kanye was a fair assessment btw, not intended to diss either Uncle Lou or Ye, indeed the more i reflect on the more apt it seems.

Well, deep down I don't believe there really is a Lou of anything except for Lou. And I don't believe there's a Beatles of anything except for the Beatles, and I don't believe there's a Nirvana of anything except Nirvana. But for the purposes of conversation, I'm willing to make comparisons. I call ATCQ the Beatles of hip hop, but do I actually mean that they're in anyway comparable to The Beatles? No. Not at all. But if I had to bestow that title on someone, it would be Tribe.

Same goes for the MJ thing. It's not like I actually think that. I'm just filling in the gaps in the way that makes the most sense to me, for fun and for conversation.

And yeah I do go over the top. If I try to stop I just do it more, so I've learned to accept that I'm a hyperbolizing motherfucker.

Dude. There are TWO differences between our lists. That makes me "woefully short?" Come on now. And I'd gladly put Eric B and Rakim or Run DMC in there to reach a consensus. I really just put Jay on because I love Jay and he's such a big figure.

I can lose Jay. I can add Eric B and Rakim and Run. It's not like we're dealing with two fundamentally different perspectives here.

And I should add that you placed Kanye pretty high on you all time most influential list right before you said that nobody cared about him. And you're not even a fan. Just saying.

Hey y'all, I'm not trying to say I know anything that you guys don't... In fact, Rob, being a few years older than I am, you probably have a more accurate memory of the mid to late '80s. Actually I'm certain you do.

I just like talking about this shit. My lists are never carved in stone, nor do I think they're superior to anyone else's. They just represent my point of view at a given moment. The more I think on it, the more I feel that Eric B & Rakim and Run DMC are two names that probably should be on such a list. And those were two of my three primary gripes about TimeOut (those assholes didn't even know the year Reasonable Doubt was released... what the fuck is TimeOut anyway?), so I'm just here to shoot the shit.

I'm glad to see the similarities in our lists. I'm glad that we all believe Tribe, Pac, OutKast etc. belong there. And I'm grateful that even you haters are giving Kanye a place.

I don't wanna fight tonight (sorry, Ramones on the brain).

a) kool keith is the lou reed of hip-hop, kanye west is kid rock if he was magically produced by fucking jim o'rourke or something

b) michael jackson pales in comparison to his sister. how the hell can you people forget the travesties that were heal the world, you are not alone, the video for the way you make me feel....this unadulterated crap sort of gets airbrushed out when it's some of the most saccharine empty bullshit pop music to ever be produced. janet meanwhile continues to make incredibly singular music by not making songs for laundry detergent commercials.

my would be:

James Brown

Ouch. Like, triple ouch. I'm off to cry in a corner now.

Ha.

Sev, I know what I've been meaning to ask you. Have you ever heard Consequence's A Tribe Called Quence 1995-2004 album? Of note I think you'd flip your shit over Consequence and Kanye's take on "Electric Relaxation."

Your first point screams "white hipster dweeb," you know? I would take The Velvet Rope over every MJ album though.