hah, i don't know who can read this vast river or shit, much less dip into it, but let me just post some "truncated wisdom" for those of you who have had the bad taste or bad judgment to jump into it anyway.

He tries to inflame posters with seemingly offhand comments, which are in actuality carefully constructed to instigate his targets. Said target naturally gets angry and lashes out against khchris, which is EXACTLY what he wants - he's now got them engaged in an argument, one which he can claim to be blameless in starting. He then hounds them ceaselessly, constantly baiting the poster, and THEN comes whining to the rest of the board about constantly being picked on and harassed. It's carefully crafted from the beginning, and amounts to a long-winded textual version of "Hey, look at me, PLEASE pay attention to me!")

now, friends, haven't we learned our lesson? or do we need to increase the amount of fish in our diet??

well, i ignore listed him & then he sucked me back in...

all I can write is that I should have heeded your words (from years ago) all along, !@#$%!, about khchris.

chabib was ever so close to banning him that one time
http://www.sonicyouth.com/gossip/showthread.php?t=475
fairly recently & I should have offered words of encouragement for exactly that to be done.

No, don't ban him. We can't have banning going. That's wrong. He's entitled to his ridiculous posts. In fact, it serves a useful purpose, insofar as it's a good example of what happens when you take this forum too seriously. I say 'no' to ban. We can ignore him if we want, or we can dip in and insult him if we want to. No point getting heavy about it.

CHABIB is well familiar with this thread, infact he's already told people to "get off KHCHRIS'S jock" about this thread. I'm confident that Chabib knows that this is purely a debate and hasn't gotten "dirty" except for atari's little rant. I am working with EXACT quotes straight from ricechex himself. So, can someone tell me what I've done wrong so far? Oh, you couldn't? Well then, why the crying???

ricechex-"i also am the one with a poli sci degree, not u. "
Where did you get your degree from and when?

ricechex-"What fuels alot of this anger is how divided the country is, and specifically the right."
Are you sure that it's more divided on the right than it is on the left? How would you explain Bush being re-elected for a 2nd term?

ricechex-"The traditional conservative viewpoint is to put a halt on immigration and especially the illegal variant."
So, the traditional conservative viewpoint it to put a halt on people wanting to come to the country?(hehehe...I just had to laugh;)

ricechex-"But now, that is being sort of pushed to the side and ignored by the Bushie conservatisim, b/c their new focus is on the eternal bottom line of greed, money. This side are the same people who push outsourcing..again, Bush influence."
Oh, but um...didn't Clinton get NAFTA passed and wasn't "outsourcing" already a problem before GWB got elected as president?

ricechex-"Bush has a real problem trying to find the happy medium between two major voices: businesses and bush backers that want to pay workers little, and no record for government accountabilty, thus no benefits etc,.. and voices that want accountabilty, the traditional republicans who say illegals take jobs, and cost U.S taxpayers millions. "
That was a problem way before either Bush was elected into office, probably going back further than even the 60s. Take notes: Democrats=protecting the workers rights; Republicans=protecting the owners/business rights. It's always been that way, scout.

ricechex-"Bill Clinton this, Bill Clinton that. Hey, u know Bill Clinton started world war II?"
This coming from someone who supposedly has a political science degree?(giggles)

ricechex-"Now what r u talking about? U are talking about quality and efficency of a company that started way back in the 80's."
No ricechex. Honda started over 40 years ago, not in the 80s.(LOL!)

ricechex-"KH is just a bush guy, lock, stock, and barrel. We can see right thru him..and he was called out on it, and identified as such a long time ago.Every argument, it's on display. Sometimes it is thinly veiled, sometimes not. How ironic that he has a heart and compassion for the illegal immigrants and the cheap produce, but fails to see the larger picture that Americans should come first. They should come first when considering them to die in a war based on lies, and they should come first for jobs, and they should come first for American's rights. That should never change."

Um...are you sure you're not the REPUBLICAN? I've always voted for Democrats, which is why I show more compassion for human rights. You on the other hand believe they should not have any rights before "legal citizens", a common believe of CHRISTIAN CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICANS.(hehehe...you just gave yourself up, ricechex)

ricechex-"Why doesn't the republican view line up with the pres. That is HIS agenda, not congress. Know the facts, learn the facts. it is also a credit to a real president who worked for the people, reached across the lines, unlike yr ass of a pres."

My favorite president, Bill Clinton, was the reason why our country was so dominant in the 90s. Part of that was because his fiscal beliefs and policies were more aligned with Republicans. One excellent example of that was Bill Clinton getting NAFTA passed, which was originally concepted and in passing through the Bush Administration in the late 80s but expanded upon by Bill Clinton's administration.

Ricechex, you have to have a "happy medium" that will make most of the people happy, not just republicans only and not just democrats only. THAT is why Bill Clinton will go down as one of the greatest presidents ever...because he was a Democrat with some Republican ideals, especially in fiscal policy. Don't be too ignorant of this fact. If you didn't know this, then you definitely don't have any degree whatsoever.

ricechex-"Right. But the 80's was the pertinent decade in which they took over the auto industry. Learn the facts, know the facts."
They didn't "take over" the industry until early-mid 90s. They did, however, start getting popular in the 1970s when they started "outsourcing" in America. But, I guess "Rome was built in a day..."(hehehe).

ricechex-"Outsourcing has exploded twenty fold over the span till where we r know, especially since Bush. In light of all the criticism and uproar from most Americans, Bush praises it."
"Twenty fold" especially since Bush? That's funny because during his 1st term, the growth rate of outsourcing was only 1% during his first term. Unless you think that just over a couple of years during his 2nd term it has "ballooned"(giggles).

ricechex-"NAFTA, SHMAFTA. We're talking outsourcing(Jesus, get in the game)... and that is fast becoming a republican trait."
Even though Bill Clinton, a DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT, got NAFTA passed? I'm not sure you know exactly what NAFTA is or "outsourcing" really is:

"NAFTA has placed American workers in direct competition with other countries where wages are a fraction of ours," he said. "We’ve set up a situation where American workers, even though they are the most productive workers in the word, cannot compete because it’s such an unleveled playing field."http://www.uswa.org/uswa/program/content/1131.php

ricechex-"Outsourcing is not, as u republicans like to say a "Clintonian",( haha.)product. let's agree on that. Therefore u r wrong."

What is NAFTA again? "Outsourcing appears to threaten the livelihood of domestic workers and, in the United States, the American Dream. This is especially true for high-tech workers who were promised the “jobs of tomorrow”- a phrase Bill Clinton iterated in 1994 to justify his conservative position on NAFTA."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outsourcing

The affects of NAFTA? "Labor unions in Canada and the United States have opposed NAFTA for fear that jobs would move out of the country due to lower labor costs in Mexico."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAFTA

So, do you STILL insist that NAFTA 'has nothing to do with 'outsourcing'"???(giggles) Sorry, I had to laugh;)

ricechex-"China practically owns us, we sell vital ports for security to Dubai, and we're fighting an illegal war based on lies by our federal govt."
Dude, where do I begin with this statement? 1. It's the other way around...we have more power economically than China. Why else would we be 'outsourcing' there? If they owned us(as you say), then they would be 'outsourcing' to us. But, what does the Iraq War have anything to do with 'outsourcing'?

ricechex-"Since the W Bush tenure, we have had large technological companies outsourcing to countries all over the world, namely to India. This involved many different nations that NAFTA had nothing to with. The explosion of outsourcing, world wide, is happening now!"
Are you talking about the first or second Bush? Because if you're talking about the 2nd Bush, well the US had been outsourcing hi-tech companies WAY BEFORE GWB was elected.

ricechex-"By name alone,it should tell u it had do with free trade, and tarrifs,and a trade bloc, with set goals to help trade... not outsource, b/c they hadn't even identified it in the way that we see it today."
So, I guess Mexico wasn't a source for "cheap labor" for America afterall!(hehehe, had to laugh!)

ricechex-"Read my paragraph again. we're outsourcing huge technological companies like IBM and HP,manufacturing to China, and port security nowadays. where ya been"? That would never have been done during Clinton.That's all GW,baby."

"Manufacturing---- In 1994, HP decided to outsource its manufacturing to third-party vendors and oversea countries to lower costs and raise profits. Today, desktop computers are assembled in Guadalaraja, Mexico where HP employs approximately 1,500 workers."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hewlett-Packard

So I guess that was "all GW baby"(hehehe). Holy shit! Mexico? In 1994, the year NAFTA was passed? WOW! Who would've thought America would be using MEXICAN WORKERS to cut down on lower costs and raise profits???(giggles) Yeah, it would "never have been done during Clinton's administration"(LOL!).

ricechex-"the right has accomplished in just five years the creation of a low-wage economy, a country filled with high-skilled workers so desperate for jobs they will work for peanuts. Bush and his econmic advisors continue to openly support these policies. But you're still talking about NAFTA. That's "old news".haha. Bush sees the results of outsourcing, and is dumb enough to push CAFTA."

That is mostly the result of "outsourcing", which became popular in the 90s. Bush hasn't done anything to help the problem, but by blaming Bush for "outsourcing", you not only look ridiculous, but you look like you're a highschool kid trying to act older than you really are.

And again, there is no way you have ANY kind of degree.

Ricechex, just give it up. You look rather ridiculous.

You can either give up, answer the questions, or continue to be humiliated.

ricechex-"Now what r u talking about? U are talking about quality and efficency of a company that started way back in the 80's."

(giggles):D

ricechex-"By name alone,it should tell u it had do with free trade, and tarrifs,and a trade bloc, with set goals to help trade... not outsource, b/c they hadn't even identified it in the way that we see it today."



(hehehe) He thinks NAFTA has nothing to do with "outsourcing"!!!(LOL)

You know, all of this could've been avoided if ricechex had just admitted that he was wrong in the statements above. That's all it will take.

If he keeps insisting he's "correct", well I'm just going to repost his silly comments and question them with proof.

I am surprised %^$@!!@ has taken up for a guy who not only thought "Honda started in the 80s", but also denies the fact that "NAFTA is partly the blame for today's outsourcing problems". Are you guys as naive as ricechex?

Also, why would anyone lie about having a "Political Science Degree"???

The overall consensus(with the exception of "the haters") is that ricechex obviously has no degree whatsoever and yeah, he's been wrong on just about everything.

So what else is new???

Well, you know what they say: "birds of a feather flock together".

Birds of a feather are flocking outside!

khchris, if u accept these two points, written by yr own hand, i accept whatever i have written, (tho unfortunately misconstrued). nevertheless, it is may be the way out of this mess.

khchris: "Today's "outsourcing" is a much bigger problem than when Clinton got NAFTA passed",


khchris: "Honda was much more popular in the 80s than it was in the 70s. This is just retarded because that goes without saying. It's obvious"...

everyone, is that fair?

Is this still going on?

you really think that appeals to reason will work?


it never has before

ricechex

dude

we've been dealing with this shit for years

YEARS

the guy's gotta go

somebody

has got to go

i mean, it's

BULL
SHIT

enough already

To be fair, it is quite fun to do that. Does a second pre-emptive strike have any effect I wonder?

*Edit: Wow. That actually looks quite pretty.

Atari

Bless You For Having

A Fucking

Brain

right back at ya

atari 2600 is what you call a "hater".

One day, there was a thread talking about the band "The Sea and Cake" and I used the spelling of "The 'C' in Cake" as a reference/homage to Gastr Del Sol. Me and Emma Blowgun have used this NUMEROUS times, way before atari 2600 went psycho on us.

So I get this reply from atari 2600: "It's not The C in Cake, it's The Sea and Cake."

Atari 2600 had just tried to correct me, even though no posts were directed towards him and nobody was even talking to him in the first place. He was simply there just to "start correcting everybody".

When I told him it The Sea and Cake got their name from the Gastr Del Sol song, he went completely psycho!!! He then accused me of using that way of spelling the band to "bait him". Bait him? First off, I wasn't talking to him...nobody was even talking to him. Secondly, it was a reference I had been using years before atari 2600 went psycho on us that day. Third, it was atari 2600 who chose to "correct me".

After that, atari 2600 just started crying and just went completely psycho. After that day, he just won't let that go.

BTW, atari 2600 what happened to all that talk about how you were going to "report me to the FBI"(LOL!). That was some funny shit!!!(hahaha)

Then I called him out. Ever since I dared atari 2600 to "report me to the FBI", he has been quiet about it all.(LOL!)

Anyways, atari 2600 you need to grow up some and stop going psycho on everyone. It's not like anyone likes you here any more than they like me.

And why does anyone need to go? Because ricechex refuses to be wrong and all I've done was repost his quotes with proof that proves his statements wrong?

C'mon, atari 2600. Grow up. Stop being a hater.

Your "2 points"? As I see it, you were wrong on about 20 things.(LOL!)

Nope, not until you accept those statements that you made were wrong.

So, I must repost your silly remarks with further proof that not only do you not know what you're talking about, but you don't have a degree as well.

But, this is common knowledge on the board...you're simply a liar and a "hater".

Stop being a "hater". Don't be like atari 2600. You have a chance not to turn PSYCHO on all of us(LOL!)

Ricechex, you have a choice of walking away, admitting you were wrong, or continuing with it. You know I'm just going to continue to repost your quotes until you admit you were wrong or walk away. If you continue to try to insist you were not wrong, well, it's going to go on for a very long time. People already know you don't have a degree, and they already know I've won this debate. I just want to hear it from you, my dear:)

ricechex-"i also am the one with a poli sci degree, not u. "
Where did you get your degree from and when?

ricechex-"What fuels alot of this anger is how divided the country is, and specifically the right."
Are you sure that it's more divided on the right than it is on the left? How would you explain Bush being re-elected for a 2nd term?

ricechex-"The traditional conservative viewpoint is to put a halt on immigration and especially the illegal variant."
So, the traditional conservative viewpoint it to put a halt on people wanting to come to the country?(hehehe...I just had to laugh;)

ricechex-"But now, that is being sort of pushed to the side and ignored by the Bushie conservatisim, b/c their new focus is on the eternal bottom line of greed, money. This side are the same people who push outsourcing..again, Bush influence."
Oh, but um...didn't Clinton get NAFTA passed and wasn't "outsourcing" already a problem before GWB got elected as president?

ricechex-"Bush has a real problem trying to find the happy medium between two major voices: businesses and bush backers that want to pay workers little, and no record for government accountabilty, thus no benefits etc,.. and voices that want accountabilty, the traditional republicans who say illegals take jobs, and cost U.S taxpayers millions. "
That was a problem way before either Bush was elected into office, probably going back further than even the 60s. Take notes: Democrats=protecting the workers rights; Republicans=protecting the owners/business rights. It's always been that way, scout.

ricechex-"Bill Clinton this, Bill Clinton that. Hey, u know Bill Clinton started world war II?"
This coming from someone who supposedly has a political science degree?(giggles)

ricechex-"Now what r u talking about? U are talking about quality and efficency of a company that started way back in the 80's."
No ricechex. Honda started over 40 years ago, not in the 80s.(LOL!)

ricechex-"KH is just a bush guy, lock, stock, and barrel. We can see right thru him..and he was called out on it, and identified as such a long time ago.Every argument, it's on display. Sometimes it is thinly veiled, sometimes not. How ironic that he has a heart and compassion for the illegal immigrants and the cheap produce, but fails to see the larger picture that Americans should come first. They should come first when considering them to die in a war based on lies, and they should come first for jobs, and they should come first for American's rights. That should never change."

Um...are you sure you're not the REPUBLICAN? I've always voted for Democrats, which is why I show more compassion for human rights. You on the other hand believe they should not have any rights before "legal citizens", a common believe of CHRISTIAN CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICANS.(hehehe...you just gave yourself up, ricechex)

ricechex-"Why doesn't the republican view line up with the pres. That is HIS agenda, not congress. Know the facts, learn the facts. it is also a credit to a real president who worked for the people, reached across the lines, unlike yr ass of a pres."

My favorite president, Bill Clinton, was the reason why our country was so dominant in the 90s. Part of that was because his fiscal beliefs and policies were more aligned with Republicans. One excellent example of that was Bill Clinton getting NAFTA passed, which was originally concepted and in passing through the Bush Administration in the late 80s but expanded upon by Bill Clinton's administration.

Ricechex, you have to have a "happy medium" that will make most of the people happy, not just republicans only and not just democrats only. THAT is why Bill Clinton will go down as one of the greatest presidents ever...because he was a Democrat with some Republican ideals, especially in fiscal policy. Don't be too ignorant of this fact. If you didn't know this, then you definitely don't have any degree whatsoever.

ricechex-"Right. But the 80's was the pertinent decade in which they took over the auto industry. Learn the facts, know the facts."
They didn't "take over" the industry until early-mid 90s. They did, however, start getting popular in the 1970s when they started "outsourcing" in America. But, I guess "Rome was built in a day..."(hehehe).

ricechex-"Outsourcing has exploded twenty fold over the span till where we r know, especially since Bush. In light of all the criticism and uproar from most Americans, Bush praises it."
"Twenty fold" especially since Bush? That's funny because during his 1st term, the growth rate of outsourcing was only 1% during his first term. Unless you think that just over a couple of years during his 2nd term it has "ballooned"(giggles).

ricechex-"NAFTA, SHMAFTA. We're talking outsourcing(Jesus, get in the game)... and that is fast becoming a republican trait."
Even though Bill Clinton, a DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT, got NAFTA passed? I'm not sure you know exactly what NAFTA is or "outsourcing" really is:

"NAFTA has placed American workers in direct competition with other countries where wages are a fraction of ours," he said. "We’ve set up a situation where American workers, even though they are the most productive workers in the word, cannot compete because it’s such an unleveled playing field."http://www.uswa.org/uswa/program/content/1131.php

ricechex-"Outsourcing is not, as u republicans like to say a "Clintonian",( haha.)product. let's agree on that. Therefore u r wrong."

What is NAFTA again? "Outsourcing appears to threaten the livelihood of domestic workers and, in the United States, the American Dream. This is especially true for high-tech workers who were promised the “jobs of tomorrow”- a phrase Bill Clinton iterated in 1994 to justify his conservative position on NAFTA."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outsourcing

The affects of NAFTA? "Labor unions in Canada and the United States have opposed NAFTA for fear that jobs would move out of the country due to lower labor costs in Mexico."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAFTA

So, do you STILL insist that NAFTA 'has nothing to do with 'outsourcing'"???(giggles) Sorry, I had to laugh;)

ricechex-"China practically owns us, we sell vital ports for security to Dubai, and we're fighting an illegal war based on lies by our federal govt."
Dude, where do I begin with this statement? 1. It's the other way around...we have more power economically than China. Why else would we be 'outsourcing' there? If they owned us(as you say), then they would be 'outsourcing' to us. But, what does the Iraq War have anything to do with 'outsourcing'?

ricechex-"Since the W Bush tenure, we have had large technological companies outsourcing to countries all over the world, namely to India. This involved many different nations that NAFTA had nothing to with. The explosion of outsourcing, world wide, is happening now!"
Are you talking about the first or second Bush? Because if you're talking about the 2nd Bush, well the US had been outsourcing hi-tech companies WAY BEFORE GWB was elected.

ricechex-"By name alone,it should tell u it had do with free trade, and tarrifs,and a trade bloc, with set goals to help trade... not outsource, b/c they hadn't even identified it in the way that we see it today."
So, I guess Mexico wasn't a source for "cheap labor" for America afterall!(hehehe, had to laugh!)

ricechex-"Read my paragraph again. we're outsourcing huge technological companies like IBM and HP,manufacturing to China, and port security nowadays. where ya been"? That would never have been done during Clinton.That's all GW,baby."

"Manufacturing---- In 1994, HP decided to outsource its manufacturing to third-party vendors and oversea countries to lower costs and raise profits. Today, desktop computers are assembled in Guadalaraja, Mexico where HP employs approximately 1,500 workers."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hewlett-Packard

So I guess that was "all GW baby"(hehehe). Holy shit! Mexico? In 1994, the year NAFTA was passed? WOW! Who would've thought America would be using MEXICAN WORKERS to cut down on lower costs and raise profits???(giggles) Yeah, it would "never have been done during Clinton's administration"(LOL!).

ricechex-"the right has accomplished in just five years the creation of a low-wage economy, a country filled with high-skilled workers so desperate for jobs they will work for peanuts. Bush and his econmic advisors continue to openly support these policies. But you're still talking about NAFTA. That's "old news".haha. Bush sees the results of outsourcing, and is dumb enough to push CAFTA."

That is mostly the result of "outsourcing", which became popular in the 90s. Bush hasn't done anything to help the problem, but by blaming Bush for "outsourcing", you not only look ridiculous, but you look like you're a highschool kid trying to act older than you really are.

And again, there is no way you have ANY kind of degree.

After i gave us a chance to end this thing, u continue. That's sad.

Khchris: Are you sure that it's more divided on the right than it is on the left? How would you explain Bush being re-elected for a 2nd term?

RC: Yes, with people the likes of Dennis Hastert coming out against a Bush nominee before Bush even announces the nominee? uh-huh.See, Bush likes division, but not in his own party. he wants them to fall in line, like most presidents. But again, we're talking immigration, and it is very important, more important, that he has his Republicans in line at this point.

and yes, simply b/c, sadly, america gets the government they deserve. if they watch FOX news i.e., and get swayed by republican smear, and taken down swift boats, they end up like u. hehe. there's no way on earth u voted democrat, ever.

So, the traditional conservative viewpoint it to put a halt on people wanting to come to the country?(hehehe...I just had to laugh

RC: YES, tho not completely, obviously. andd they especially single out certain types of people,("minorities") unfortunately. Conservative Bush guy at work today: "they don't speak english, they're towelheads"... They have been on that side of the issue, in relative terms, against liberals. U don't know that?

KH: Oh, but um...didn't Clinton get NAFTA passed and wasn't "outsourcing" already a problem before GWB got elected as president?

RC: ahh, where's that damn quote: khchris: "Today's "outsourcing" is a much bigger problem than when Clinton got NAFTA passed..

bingo. This is what u do, by the way. Clinton, Nafta, fine. Outosourcing today, larger problem. That's it. I'm fine with that, but what is yr problem?

what u fail to see is,and what i have demonstrated is, these r debates. some might think i am right, some might think i am wrong. in my political debate courses at the university(clearing throat), i experienced your type of approach. Attack anything and everything, for the sake of it, b/c u don't like what is being said. So instead of choosing to understand what that person has to say, and where they are going with it, u choose to undermine it, and nickel and dime to death. u must be miserable to hang with, very anal, and correct everybody.

all i wanted was to lay my 0.2 down and u came charging in. listen, u already agreed to my two points, about outsourcing being a larger problem than when Nafta was started, and the 80's being the largest single decade for growth of the japanese auto in relative terms.

i have already won a few pages back. but i think we perhaps should continue here, people. haha. it may just be the medcine khchris needs to understand that u cannot cry and badger, and whine, yr way out of a disagreement for petty personal issues.

i find this thread to be offensively stupid and no one is complaining.

spinning!..out.. of.. control. ( if i am insane, it's b/c of these clowns)

*Eats popcorn

You want to nip outside for a fag? A smoke or a rent-boy, your call...

I'll go out there with ya for some fresh air, but I actually quit smoking a few months ago.

khchris leave atari alone.He is my mum

Mum don't worry.Hold my hand and we will go through this difficult thread together.....

Much to my surprise, it does appear that there is a plan being proposed. President Bush actually* presented an organized, well-thought-out policy tonight during his address.

We'll see if the plan can or will be executed or not or if it's just hot air purely designed to help his poll numbers.

* & oh yeah, the "actually" is well-deserved, based on the incompetent leadership the American people have been getting from this administration.

excerpts
http://www.forbes.com/entrepreneurs/...ap2747812.html

o brother. look at this. i'd suggest starting a new thread on the subject instead of refloating this gigantic turd, as all seems lost here. i mean, i think this thing would induce either hives, or the gag reflex, on most people. both things for me. i need benadryl, and some ginger. :D

I dont think it needs to go on. If I chose a winner Id go with atari, hes backed himself up with a ton of info and proven opinions. Also because I feel the same way, I dont think any more explanation is needed, just go through the thread. Unlike others who repeat them selves and attack an entire subject with a single sentence of wise ass remarks, if even that.
Oh well.

atari has some good things to say, so he should post them in a more dignified setting, is my point. capisce?

Yes, I agree. Although I think there is nothing more to say on the matter. I may be wrong of course.
What is capisce?

some mafioso-wannabe vocabulary i occasionally affect :D

look it up on wikipedia (bastardized italian)

Ah well, I see. I still dont know how to pronounce it though.

Even though the title has "friggens" in it as a modifier, & even though this thread has been a horrible train wreck, I felt that news of Bush's address should go in the thread were we (some of us) were discussing the issue.

I don't like agreeing with the President whose administration has made so many egregious errors both bloody & costly just to fatten their bank accounts, but the fact is that the plan tonight as presented (at least) sounded very reasonable.

Excerpts of President Bush's address Monday night on immigration, as released by the White House.



On Bush's ideas for immigration overhaul:

"We are a nation of laws, and we must enforce our laws. We are also a nation of immigrants, and we must uphold that tradition, which has strengthened our country in so many ways. These are not contradictory goals. America can be a lawful society and a welcoming society at the same time. We will fix the problems created by illegal immigration, and we will deliver a system that is secure, orderly, and fair."



On border security:

"Since I became president, we have increased funding for border security by 66 percent and expanded the Border Patrol from about 9,000 to 12,000 agents. ... We have apprehended and sent home about 6 million people entering America illegally.

"Despite this progress, we do not yet have full control of the border, and I am determined to change that. Tonight I am calling on Congress to provide funding for dramatic improvements in manpower and technology at the border."



On a temporary worker program:

"The reality is that there are many people on the other side of our border who will do anything to come to America to work and build a better life. They walk across miles of desert in the summer heat, or hide in the back of 18-wheelers to reach our country. This creates enormous pressure on our border that walls and patrols alone will not stop. To secure the border effectively we must reduce the numbers of people trying to sneak across."



On enforcement:

"We need to hold employers to account for the workers they hire. It is against the law to hire someone who is in this country illegally. Yet businesses often cannot verify the legal status of their employees because of the widespread problem of document fraud. Therefore, comprehensive immigration reform must include a better system for verifying documents and work eligibility. ...

"A tamper-proof card would help us enforce the law and leave employers with no excuse for violating it. And by making it harder for illegal immigrants to find work in our country, we would discourage people from crossing the border illegally in the first place."



On amnesty:

"We must face the reality that millions of illegal immigrants are already here. They should not be given an automatic path to citizenship. This is amnesty, and I oppose it. Amnesty would be unfair to those who are here lawfully and it would invite further waves of illegal immigration."



On assimilation:

"We must honor the great American tradition of the melting pot, which has made us one nation out of many peoples. The success of our country depends upon helping newcomers assimilate into our society, and embrace our common identity as Americans. Americans are bound together by our shared ideals, an appreciation of our history, respect for the flag we fly, and an ability to speak and write the English language."



On the tone of the debate: ("debate"? isn't that supposed to be "address"?)

"We must always remember that real lives will be affected by our debates and decisions, and that every human being has dignity and value no matter what their citizenship papers say."
http://www.forbes.com/entrepreneurs/...ap2747812.html

atari: well sorry bro, don't count me as a deserter, but too much benadryl makes me sleepy. i respect my senses & so i can't keep looking at this trainwreck that was. best wishes w/ the floater & a happy ride if one is possible. /me tips hat off.

rhys: kinda like "capeesh"-- ha hah--

Sounds about right. Has he spoken yet?

on second thought, the whole thing is just a mess & i wouldn't send any additional nat'l guard troops to the border although it appears as if that part of the plan will most definitely happen. The main thing that needs to be addressed is the american employers that enable immigrants to stay illegal in this country. the gov't should simply do site inspections based on complaints to enforce the existing laws.

Yes, Yes to all of your questions.

Do I win the thread prize now?