I think that's where some other doubts about Messi come from, the fact that he's playing alongside some of the greatest players ever in Xavi and Iniesta. Taking nothing away from Messi but Maradona never had that.

And el symbols, yeah the defenders you mention are good but I wouldn't say any of them are especially great, either. Chiellini is probably my favourite right now, and Vidic (when he's fit) but I don't think Ramos, Piquet, etc represent any kind of golden era of defenders in the way that say Messi, Iniesta, CRonaldo, Zlatan, Falcao, etc, suggest a golden age for attackers. Catenaccio is now really unfashionable as everyone seems hell bent on trying to emulate Barca. That's great for people who just want to see silly goal tallies but I prefer a bit of balance and can really enjoy a good defensive display as a spectacle in itself. I do take your point about defensive midfielders though; I'm a big fan of Xabi-Alonso and think Busquets is one of the most undervalued players out there right now.

yeah i said post-catenaccio because nobody plays it anymore but what remains since is a strong emphasis on defense that's probably never gonna leave the game. just 6 years ago in the world cup people were complaining of too much defense ruling the game.

and yes, everyone wants to play like barcelona, but barcelona at its best plays with puyol and dani alves, and then busquets in the midfield. let's also not forget that chelsea won the CL by parking the bus?

Bloody hell! Arsenal! Whats going on?

Shocking, I know. I never took the Wenger out brigade too seriously but it does look like something's got to give there. Whether that should mean Arsene leaving I'm still not sure but there's clearly something wrong at the club.

for all Wenger's plus points you have to question his signings over the years
i cant think of any big name being signed thats really been succesful. He's only been able to sell big players!
I really like Vermalen, and i think Pedolski was a good signing, but other than that i'm struggling (Oxlade-Chamberlain may turn out good, but its a bit too soon to tell).

My manager at work was saying that Arsenal's wage policy causes problems. Theres some kind of limit as to the difference between players wages. Whatever the figure is the idea is that everyone is paid a similiar wage and so there is no friction within the squad. The outcome is that the good players are paid a lower wage than they can get elsewhere (and so leave), while the dregs of the squad are getting paid alot more than they could expect elsewhere (and so dont have any monetary motivation to improve)
i've no idea if it's true though...

i think in recent times there's been some great defenders, but i agree the great ones are either retired or well past their best
Cannavaro, Lucio, Puyol, Ashley Cole, Terry, and i'd even say Ferdinand

funny how many great defenders seem to be cunts!

Yeah, while you have to admire Wenger's refusal to pay silly wages, he's naive if he thinks Arsenal can stay competitive that way. But more than just quality of players, there seems to be a kind of complacency in the club that makes me think a change of manager is becoming all the more inevitable. But who could they get to replace him? They probably couldn't afford Guardiola (even though in many ways they're the ideal club for him) or Mourinho and everyone else in the frame would be a massive risk. I've heard talk of them maybe going for Redknapp but I can't see that happening.

i hear Steve Kean is looking for work

Don't forget Martin Skrtel!

And there's always Avram Grant.

you ingleses don't like kompany? i know man city hasn't been at its best, but still... if he hadn't gotten injured, would the [last] match have ended as it did? (we'll never know, this is obviously a rhetorical question).

also, a couple more germans (since i mentioned lahm):

hummels is fantastic!

and david alaba who is merely 20 is amazing and pairs greatly with ribery on bayern's left. i said "german" cuz he's a bundesliga player but he's actually austrian. he's recently back from having a broken foot-- check him out.

defenders are chronically underrated

It was the capitol cup. If it had been the FA cup or the champions league then sure the bile would be acceptable. No one was screaming and crying when Man Utd got kicked and so on.


With regards to the Wenger pay cap. When the new fair play rules kick in a lot of other clubs will have to stop paying silly money too. He's just ahead of the game on that one. AND haven't they just signed some mega multi million deal for whatever, meaning more money for the January transfer window?

Wenger knows what he's doing and he's got some good talent seemingly coming through. Should he be fired? Who would replace him is the better question.

Kompany was one of my favourite players last season and to be fair to him, Man City's problems in defence this season seems more down to Mancini's tampering than with the players themselves. And I couldn't agree more about defenders being underrated. It just seems like we're in the middle of an era where they're even more undervalued than usual.

And let's hope the FA ban Fellaini for that headbutt in time for him to be out against West Ham next week.

What is this blasphemy? :p

As for Komapany, he's actually one of the few players I still like.

Yeah, I don't know anyone who doesn't like Kompany. He's like the Michael Palin of the Premiership.

this might explain what you're seeing not as a result of lesser individual talent but rather environmental changes:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog...ide-law-genius

There's a lot of truth to that article but we've had some great defenders/defences since 2005. They just seem to have taken a bit of a dip this last couple of seasons, and this season in particular. But given the various rule changes over the years I suppose we can only judge defenders (or any player in any position) in terms of their own era, given we'll never know how Messi or Kompany would've performed under previous conditions just as we'll never know how Maradona or Maldini would perform in this current one (although I suspect with all of them, that they'd have done just fine in any era).

Anyway, off the point but 'world class'. I hear this term all the time about whether a player is or isn't but I've never quite understood what 'world class' actually means. Anyone?

demonyo, is your real name "paul moore"? (rhetorical question, don't answer). i thought the problem might be defenders in the prem because the bundesliga has some awesome performers as i've mentioned, plus great defenders in serie a, and i think spain also have some great defensive players, so i googled "best premiere league defenders" and this turned up:

http://hereisthecity.com/2012/12/12/...ood-defenders/

zat yoo, zantee kloss? in any case interesting contribution to the whole question i guess it sorta covers the individual vs. enviromental factors as well.

...


world class= probably means something different by region but i'd assume a player worthy of a champion team either in a continental league (ofc not concacaf, etc), a world cup, something of that sort. someone who can have huge salaries or who could do great anywhere...?

damn, i am ready to play fantasy football again, at last, and nothing available, is there?

maybe i should buy this book

http://www.amazon.com/Inverting-Pyra.../dp/1409102041

looks pretty good

im rambling because i didn't sleep last night. also, i need to stay awake. but that book looks interesting.

====

ps you might enjoy watching this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eR46hyrCCI4

Who's Paul Moore?!?

I've heard that the problem with defences is spreading to other leagues but I've not seen enough to really know so I'll take your word for it that it isn't.

And yeah, that tends to be how I see 'world class', too: a player that'd likely make the first team of any of the major clubs or national sides. Begging the question, is there a single truly world class English player right now - by which I suppose we have to mean is there a current English player good enough to play for Barca or Real or Bayern or Spain or Germany? Rooney? Probably (Real, anyway). Scholes? Definitely once, but not now. Ditto Gerrard, Lampard and Ashley Cole.

And yeah, I really want that Jonathan Wilson book, too.

Ewwww Hummels. Looking good!!!

joe hart for sure! and ashley cole (speaking of defenders). and maybe (maybe) rooney... naaah.. rooney definitely! (he's no messi/cronaldo/zlatan though). i don't know the other players so much.

ps- paul moore is teh dude who wrote that thing. a qpr fan with the wig in the photo.

Joe Hart is a good call. Ashley Cole was world class maybe two or three seasons ago but he's probably a bit old now. Rooney's the most frustrating. On his day he's phenomenal and would justify his place in any side but he just disappears in far too many games. But yeah, Joe Hart for sure (don't tell him, though; his egos getting a bit out of control as it is.)

gareth bale might be "world class" someday, i know hes not english but hes from the uk

I'd say Jack Wiltshire.
For me, whenever I see him play he is by far the best player on the pitch
I could see him in the barca team easily, and he is only going to get better as he gets older

I think Bale might already be world class but, as you say, he's Welsh. Wiltshire could be, one day, as I think could Gary Cahill and definitely Leighton Baines. In terms of where they're at right now, though, I can only think of Joe Hart.

I just bought it in my local bookshop. I skimmed through it on the way home and I do think you'll love it. I'll let you know how I get on with it. If you see it, I'd also recommend Gianluca Vialli and Gabrielle Marcotti's book, the Italian Job. On the surface it's Vialli's autobiography but it's really a discussion of tactical and cultural differences between the Prem and Serie A, with insights from big hitters like Mourinho and Fergie. I think you'd really like it.

thanks man. im gonna get the kindle version (obviously shipping would kill me). i'd be reading it already if i wasn't dealing wiht a couple of ugly deadlines (free tomorrow! free tomorrow!). aghhhhhhh........

The only odd thing I've noticed so far is that while written in 2008, there's no real mention of Guardiola's Barcalona. It only seems to go up to Mourinho's Chelsea. Although given the sheer amount of attention Barca have received in recent years, that may not be such a bad thing. And if you like diagrams of obscure Uruguay formations from the 50s, you'll be in absolute heaven.

My local shop also had this, which I've been meaning to read for a while but will probably get after I've finished Inverting the Pyramid.




I also saw this, which you may be more up your street:



My new years resolution may be to read as many nerdy football books as I possibly can.

You can't get much more geeky than this surely?

Oh that's beyond the pale. You can't have a book about something like that with such a serious cover. At least the cover of Inverting the Pyramid makes it look a bit like a Bill Bryson book.

So a three game ban for Fellaini. Will that be the last we see of him at Everton, I wonder?

*puts fingers in ears* lalalalalalala. The rumours are that Chelsea are after him. CHELSEA? How the fuck can Chelsea need another midfielder.

If they did want him they better cough up.

we are gonna thrash Chelsea 2-0 on Wednesday!

Absolutely. Another attacking midfielder is the last thing they need. I actually wonder if Abramovich is reluctant to sign anyone big before his next 'proper' manager is in place. His priority right now seems to be finding a way to offload older players and, perhaps his one unavoidable big spend, getting a replacement for Torres. But there's no such thing as common sense with Abramovich so who knows?

Some more food for fans of all things tactical (from the author of Inverting the Pyramid)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/b...trends-of-2012

And of particular relevance to the 'decline of defending' debate and whether it's just a Prem thing, this quote seems on point:

"In Germany, possession-based teams in Bayern Munich and Borussia Dortmund continue to dominate, while both Manchester United and Manchester City seem deliberately to be attempting to play more of a possession game, something that has come at the cost of defensive stability. Where United's lack of a dynamic presence at the back of midfield last season seemed the result of misfortune, it now appears to be policy"

Speaking of which Di Matteo got manager of the year the other day. TAKE THAT ABRAMOVICH!

If you do I'll eat my hat and trust me it's not a very tasty looking hat.

....Goddammit.

nah its not gonna happen but meh its only the league cup.

Bad news about Barcelona coach Vilanova

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2...surgery-cancer

Draw for the last 16 of the Champions League look like it'll be an early exit for both English teams:

Real Madrid v Manchester United
Arsenal v Bayern Munich
Celtic v Juventus
Milan v Barcelona
Shakhtar Donetsk v Borussia Dortmund
Valencia v Paris St-Germain
Galatasaray v Schalke
Porto v Málaga