how the hell can you believe in a Son of God without believing in God to begin with???

crunch yr numbers again, sparky!

i was raised catholic and now i am extremely suspicious of organized religion.


this seems to be a common phenomenon; i have to wonder if there is a causal link...

describing the definition of christians does not in any way imply that the person doing the describing buys into it man. jeez, oklahoma really fucked you up man. wher did I say I was describing my personal beliefs?

I, and anyone in fact, can discourse on any topic, be it satanism, leprechauns, marxism, etc, and it does not mean they BELIEVE IT.

No but there is a casual one.





(Had this big problem in Philosophy class--kept reading causal as casual)

Your logic is maddening at times Rob.

I was all set to write this highly intelligent all encompassing reply than I remember the topic was religion....At least Budda promises me rewards here and now

Rob, you might want to file this in your 'the decade started in 2001" file. You'd have to explain how someone could believe Jesus was the son of "god" but not believe in "god". I don't see you did it above.

Personally, I'm finding the Nestorians to be very compelling - Jesus and Christ are separate - Christ was actually an 'angel' that took over Jesus' body - and the way it was absolutely suppressed by the elites tells me it must have some substance.

I was replying to THIS -> "Also, I like the fact that many religions are truly Christian (i.e. believe in God). " -artsygrrl

What you were trying to say is that Christianity is not quite commensurable with a broader notion of 'God' in other religions because of the fact of the revelation of Christ; what you actually said was convoluted and wrong.

I say 'fact' within the context of Christianity. The empirical notion of 'fact' is slightly different, though I'd argue not incommensurable.

gots to believe in jeezy creezy to be xian.

and glice, everythig I said was absolutely dead on CORRECT

go re-learn yr theology.

gotcha, missed that, in this case yeah I see what you're saying.

When are we just gonna say, yeah if you want to believe in the tooth fairy thats great but keep your fantasies in your home and stop inflicting them on us.

if I assert JFK was killed by someone other than Oswald I get called a 'conspiracy theorist" but if I make up a fantasy of an all powerful one who sees and knows everything then I'm considered normal and psychologically healthy. Humans are stupid fearful meat.

THANK YOU KNOX. Religious beliefs SHOULD be a very private matter, which is what I should have remembered before I responded to this thread.
Let me clarify my thoughts and responses:
From my personally damaging years in a Catholic school, I say once a Catholic, always a Catholic (the guilt part). I have listened to my parish priest deliver sermons about how fortunate we are to be Catholic because Catholics are the "true" believers in Jesus, God, whatever (believing in God "the most" part). Then.....haha, his holiness calls me into his office the next day to ram his tongue down my throat (I'm 9 years old, btw).
And do I believe in "God"? You fucking bet I do...in this way..."Bow down before the one you serve. You're going to get what you deserve."
I don't hate Catholics per se, but I hate the control, the hypocrisy, this facade of virtue. I am jaded and suspicious of most any religion. And I truly apologize to those Catholics who are kind, true, and genuine.
My response regarding other religions was naive because I really don't know much about ANY other religion. But I DO want desperately to embrace a faith, any faith, that will pull me away from hate and fear. As I mentioned in a much earlier thread, all I really want is peace of mind.
Lastly, I have to say that atheism is not for me. I know that if I did not believe in "God", I would believe in some higher power, even if it was an oak tree.
So I hope this helps explain what I said and why. No apologies from me, just clarifiication.

Somethings worry me. Like in the US, the use of public funds in many schools to preach virginity disguised as "sex education". Like the fact I can easily watch many evangelical channels on cable blatantly preaching against other churches, religions, sexual orientations. Preaching hatred on TV.

These new "evangelical" branches operate exactly like corporations and preach superficiality, greed and consumerism. I am not saying they should not exist, I am saying their leaders should respond for tax evasion, extorsion and whatever it is that they do financially, and perhaps they shouldn't be allowed to get billboards, tv channels and newspapers. Blantantly or not, a lot of media is entangled with this and belongs to them.

Their rising today represents more of a social virus than the Catholic church. A lot of our achievements in civil rights, against homophobia, bigotry, racism and sexism are being fought against by this new rising bigot youth, I find that really worrying.

Organised religion, as any powerful institution, is a a perfect environment for corrupt, sociopathic and greedy human beings, one must keep that in mind, they'll be everywhere. It's not religion itself that sucks, it's the fact that humans use it for their own agenda.

All this talk of religion reminded me of this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7i01...eature=related

Buddhism is deep and benneficial in the way it increases your spiritual vocabulary and works to shatter the self-serving ego..

In regards to Judaism, it is not a bad gig, but it will have a bunch of guilt trip shit attached to it, that whole what would Moses do? Well there are literally hundreds and hundreds of things on the list of what wouldn't he do, can make things a bit strenuous. A lot of Christians from protestant background convert for liturgical purposes, as there are no liturgical or sung prayers in the protestant traditions. Of course, I went Orthodox for the exact same reason, because prayer is meant to be sung. In singing prayer, you shut off the chatter and dialogue of the mind, and have a kind of serene and fulfilling silence of the mind and heart in unison. Hence why chanting is the basis of nearly all but Protestant religions.. It is a shame that the songs of protestants are so honestly lame and intrinsically unmoving :(


Yes, yes and fuck yes! For many Christians in fact, Catholics are not Christians at all, but some kind of paganistic devil worshippers. Many protesants/pentecostals are literally afraid of priests, incense, the Virgin Mary, iconography and even chanting! it is a trip..


thank you, that was remarkably insightful and one of the highlights of this thread and very much an elaboration on the point I have been discussing with knox regarding unity.


That is the best and most authentic faith, that somes spontaneously.


We are arguing for the exact same things. I am talking about Christianity abandoning politics and law, I am hoping for Christians to work together as equals, not to promote the spread or advancement of Christianity, rather to stop the fragmentation and destruction of our human communities.. When Christians are divided, there is a lot of problems.. look at all the history of war and politics between rival Christian communities? So much horror because people who should have gotten along do not. The point of religion knox is to supercede politics, to supercede prejudice.. You misunderstand me to want the way current Christianity exists to spread.. no no no.. I want current Christians to open their minds and hearts, to escape the shackles of ignorance, intolerance and apathy.. to become truly equal and heartful human beings, and in doing so, maybe they wont go around exploiting the world for profit or killing strangers out of mistaken ideology?

Right. I just don't understand why you seem to want an unified form of christianity. I don't think that would make it more tolerant, possibly the opposite towards non-christians?

As for history, all groups of people have attacked and killed each other based on many things, mostly just for being different. That is not going to change by uniting people through religion.

People have to learn democracy and tolerance by law and education and keep religion as something private to be respected.

I understand your good intentions in what you're saying, but your speech has some contradictions, I can't help myself.

Basically, I sense you're saying that you wish christianity would be the main religion in the world. Regardless of what form of christianity - unified or not, peaceful or not - that is still a bias intolerant wish to interfere with personal freedom? No matter how good the intentions are.

Anyway, what I am really saying is that I don't think it is christianity that has to change or get unified. I think people should start paying less attention to religion on a social scale, learn how to separate political and religious thinking for the greater good, and exercise their religious beliefs in a more private sphere.

whoa whoa whoa.. who said anything about a unified form of Christianity? That would simply be another denomination which in time, would splinter away as the others.. I simply want Christians to stop all the in-fighting and inter-christian prejudice.. I understand your point entirely, and I agree with you largely in this regard. But in general, I promote tolerance, empathy and mutual understanding amongst ALL humans, but Christians especially, after all, these very principles are supposed to be the foundation of Christianity or any religion in the first place :)

religion can remain private as you say, but in people's private minds they should be wary of harboring prejudice, bigotry and ignorance in the name of so-called piety or religion.

Well, I got used to it. Many times at work or in school you will talk to hardcore christians and they will smile and talk to you and offer you a cookie, but deep down they are thinking you will go to hell. And they want you to. After all, they work so hard not to sin and you're a sinner, it would be unfair of their God to save me. So they think of me going to hell with a faint sense of pleasure while they offer me a cookie. It's fascinating to watch.

I don't care if they think I am going to hell, as long as they aren't trying to take rights away from me.

They can fight and disagree as much as they want. It only bothers me when they want to mess with everybody's lives and get their beliefs in laws, or going to bother women who just had abortions just outside their houses and all that horrible crap.

No Rob is right.

That's what seperates old testament jews and new testement bible thumpers, Floating....


Two religions, same "God".