how the hell can you believe in a Son of God without believing in God to begin with???

crunch yr numbers again, sparky!

i was raised catholic and now i am extremely suspicious of organized religion.


this seems to be a common phenomenon; i have to wonder if there is a causal link...

describing the definition of christians does not in any way imply that the person doing the describing buys into it man. jeez, oklahoma really fucked you up man. wher did I say I was describing my personal beliefs?

I, and anyone in fact, can discourse on any topic, be it satanism, leprechauns, marxism, etc, and it does not mean they BELIEVE IT.

No but there is a casual one.





(Had this big problem in Philosophy class--kept reading causal as casual)

Your logic is maddening at times Rob.

I was all set to write this highly intelligent all encompassing reply than I remember the topic was religion....At least Budda promises me rewards here and now

Rob, you might want to file this in your 'the decade started in 2001" file. You'd have to explain how someone could believe Jesus was the son of "god" but not believe in "god". I don't see you did it above.

Personally, I'm finding the Nestorians to be very compelling - Jesus and Christ are separate - Christ was actually an 'angel' that took over Jesus' body - and the way it was absolutely suppressed by the elites tells me it must have some substance.

I was replying to THIS -> "Also, I like the fact that many religions are truly Christian (i.e. believe in God). " -artsygrrl

What you were trying to say is that Christianity is not quite commensurable with a broader notion of 'God' in other religions because of the fact of the revelation of Christ; what you actually said was convoluted and wrong.

I say 'fact' within the context of Christianity. The empirical notion of 'fact' is slightly different, though I'd argue not incommensurable.

gots to believe in jeezy creezy to be xian.

and glice, everythig I said was absolutely dead on CORRECT

go re-learn yr theology.

gotcha, missed that, in this case yeah I see what you're saying.

When are we just gonna say, yeah if you want to believe in the tooth fairy thats great but keep your fantasies in your home and stop inflicting them on us.

if I assert JFK was killed by someone other than Oswald I get called a 'conspiracy theorist" but if I make up a fantasy of an all powerful one who sees and knows everything then I'm considered normal and psychologically healthy. Humans are stupid fearful meat.

THANK YOU KNOX. Religious beliefs SHOULD be a very private matter, which is what I should have remembered before I responded to this thread.
Let me clarify my thoughts and responses:
From my personally damaging years in a Catholic school, I say once a Catholic, always a Catholic (the guilt part). I have listened to my parish priest deliver sermons about how fortunate we are to be Catholic because Catholics are the "true" believers in Jesus, God, whatever (believing in God "the most" part). Then.....haha, his holiness calls me into his office the next day to ram his tongue down my throat (I'm 9 years old, btw).
And do I believe in "God"? You fucking bet I do...in this way..."Bow down before the one you serve. You're going to get what you deserve."
I don't hate Catholics per se, but I hate the control, the hypocrisy, this facade of virtue. I am jaded and suspicious of most any religion. And I truly apologize to those Catholics who are kind, true, and genuine.
My response regarding other religions was naive because I really don't know much about ANY other religion. But I DO want desperately to embrace a faith, any faith, that will pull me away from hate and fear. As I mentioned in a much earlier thread, all I really want is peace of mind.
Lastly, I have to say that atheism is not for me. I know that if I did not believe in "God", I would believe in some higher power, even if it was an oak tree.
So I hope this helps explain what I said and why. No apologies from me, just clarifiication.

Somethings worry me. Like in the US, the use of public funds in many schools to preach virginity disguised as "sex education". Like the fact I can easily watch many evangelical channels on cable blatantly preaching against other churches, religions, sexual orientations. Preaching hatred on TV.

These new "evangelical" branches operate exactly like corporations and preach superficiality, greed and consumerism. I am not saying they should not exist, I am saying their leaders should respond for tax evasion, extorsion and whatever it is that they do financially, and perhaps they shouldn't be allowed to get billboards, tv channels and newspapers. Blantantly or not, a lot of media is entangled with this and belongs to them.

Their rising today represents more of a social virus than the Catholic church. A lot of our achievements in civil rights, against homophobia, bigotry, racism and sexism are being fought against by this new rising bigot youth, I find that really worrying.

Organised religion, as any powerful institution, is a a perfect environment for corrupt, sociopathic and greedy human beings, one must keep that in mind, they'll be everywhere. It's not religion itself that sucks, it's the fact that humans use it for their own agenda.

All this talk of religion reminded me of this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7i01...eature=related

Buddhism is deep and benneficial in the way it increases your spiritual vocabulary and works to shatter the self-serving ego..

In regards to Judaism, it is not a bad gig, but it will have a bunch of guilt trip shit attached to it, that whole what would Moses do? Well there are literally hundreds and hundreds of things on the list of what wouldn't he do, can make things a bit strenuous. A lot of Christians from protestant background convert for liturgical purposes, as there are no liturgical or sung prayers in the protestant traditions. Of course, I went Orthodox for the exact same reason, because prayer is meant to be sung. In singing prayer, you shut off the chatter and dialogue of the mind, and have a kind of serene and fulfilling silence of the mind and heart in unison. Hence why chanting is the basis of nearly all but Protestant religions.. It is a shame that the songs of protestants are so honestly lame and intrinsically unmoving :(


Yes, yes and fuck yes! For many Christians in fact, Catholics are not Christians at all, but some kind of paganistic devil worshippers. Many protesants/pentecostals are literally afraid of priests, incense, the Virgin Mary, iconography and even chanting! it is a trip..


thank you, that was remarkably insightful and one of the highlights of this thread and very much an elaboration on the point I have been discussing with knox regarding unity.


That is the best and most authentic faith, that somes spontaneously.


We are arguing for the exact same things. I am talking about Christianity abandoning politics and law, I am hoping for Christians to work together as equals, not to promote the spread or advancement of Christianity, rather to stop the fragmentation and destruction of our human communities.. When Christians are divided, there is a lot of problems.. look at all the history of war and politics between rival Christian communities? So much horror because people who should have gotten along do not. The point of religion knox is to supercede politics, to supercede prejudice.. You misunderstand me to want the way current Christianity exists to spread.. no no no.. I want current Christians to open their minds and hearts, to escape the shackles of ignorance, intolerance and apathy.. to become truly equal and heartful human beings, and in doing so, maybe they wont go around exploiting the world for profit or killing strangers out of mistaken ideology?

Right. I just don't understand why you seem to want an unified form of christianity. I don't think that would make it more tolerant, possibly the opposite towards non-christians?

As for history, all groups of people have attacked and killed each other based on many things, mostly just for being different. That is not going to change by uniting people through religion.

People have to learn democracy and tolerance by law and education and keep religion as something private to be respected.

I understand your good intentions in what you're saying, but your speech has some contradictions, I can't help myself.

Basically, I sense you're saying that you wish christianity would be the main religion in the world. Regardless of what form of christianity - unified or not, peaceful or not - that is still a bias intolerant wish to interfere with personal freedom? No matter how good the intentions are.

Anyway, what I am really saying is that I don't think it is christianity that has to change or get unified. I think people should start paying less attention to religion on a social scale, learn how to separate political and religious thinking for the greater good, and exercise their religious beliefs in a more private sphere.

whoa whoa whoa.. who said anything about a unified form of Christianity? That would simply be another denomination which in time, would splinter away as the others.. I simply want Christians to stop all the in-fighting and inter-christian prejudice.. I understand your point entirely, and I agree with you largely in this regard. But in general, I promote tolerance, empathy and mutual understanding amongst ALL humans, but Christians especially, after all, these very principles are supposed to be the foundation of Christianity or any religion in the first place :)

religion can remain private as you say, but in people's private minds they should be wary of harboring prejudice, bigotry and ignorance in the name of so-called piety or religion.

Well, I got used to it. Many times at work or in school you will talk to hardcore christians and they will smile and talk to you and offer you a cookie, but deep down they are thinking you will go to hell. And they want you to. After all, they work so hard not to sin and you're a sinner, it would be unfair of their God to save me. So they think of me going to hell with a faint sense of pleasure while they offer me a cookie. It's fascinating to watch.

I don't care if they think I am going to hell, as long as they aren't trying to take rights away from me.

They can fight and disagree as much as they want. It only bothers me when they want to mess with everybody's lives and get their beliefs in laws, or going to bother women who just had abortions just outside their houses and all that horrible crap.

No Rob is right.

That's what seperates old testament jews and new testement bible thumpers, Floating....


Two religions, same "God".

:)

that my friend, is precisely the problem this thread hopes to address.. so many Christians use their religion to judge, condemn and even hate other people, when Jesus promoted people NOT to judge, NOT to condemn, and to abandon hate by ALL means.. for many Christians, to talk to other people is a kind of superficial niceity, and that is a shame. Evangelism is not to simply walk around throwing Jesus into everyone's faces.. it is to genuinely talk to people to empathize with them, spread some sincere love and understanding around, and generally make every situation more positive for having contributed.

Christians who WANT people to go to hell actually frighten me. When I was ministering on skid row, I didn't even have a bible, let alone thought to thump it.. I rarely even brought up Jesus.. what I did was walk around and just talk to folks with an open heart and a genuine ear to listen without judging a thing.. Hence why Jesus said "judge not" because Christians who are not judgmental make great listeners for people on the street who just need someone to talk to :)

I once walked up to a Christian highschool kid preaching there on the row, and he was telling some homeless dude all about hell and how much the dude was going to go there without Jesus! The nerve of that kid! How can you walk up to anyone and talk to them in such a disrespectful manner and expect anything but the obvious hostility he deserved! So I said, "Kid, listen, its not about hell and fire, its about love and peace! We are either ALL going to heaven, or we are ALL going to hell, but if heaven is such a limited place I don't want to be there, and if God is such a judgmental asshole, I want nothing to do with Him!"

He said, "So what about Hitler? Should Hitler go to heaven?"

I said, "If you saw Hitler in heaven would you want to leave or condemn God as well? I pray that the Devil himself is forgiven and that ALL things are in heaven. I would give up my place in line for anyone who couldn't get in for any reason."

that kid just walked away, probably more upset than he already was, but hopefully the idea of a heaven without judgment, a God without hell, might have buried a seed in his heart that will flip his lid after the fact. the homeless dude gave me a hug for listening to him rather than trying to talk over him like the kid, and we continued the conversation for twenty minutes more at least..

Bible thumpers beware, I will chew you up with love and kindness until all your bigotry and ignorance either consumes you or dissipates completely.

the kid walked away because certain people are always looking for a reason to hate and belittle others, and if its not jesus, he'll find something else.

all the "non judgemental" people who wanted to listen to me ended up trying to convert me anyway.

out of curiosity, what do you say about christians opposing abortion and gay marriage affecting the laws and civil rights?

Islam has its roots in Judaism as well. I don't remember their views on Jesus.

I didnt know that? What are their roots?

How did they go from Jehova to Muhhamid?

this muslim man told me that they accept jesus as a prophet from god.

From the wikipedia entry on Islam

good sir, the "you" in "how the hell can you believe in a Son of God without believing in God to begin with???" was not "you"...

...(pointing now)...

...(pointing has stopped)...

it was the bizarro-world christian that YOU...

...(pointing again)...

described.

it's a logic fault.

titer down the paranoia, mah friend!

that said, let's totally talk about leprechauns now!

I vote atsonicpark.

Interesting, never knew that.

See, my RC upbringing was good for something!

For some one who is not a christian and does not believe in god you sure are interested in this thread.

If more little girls stayed "virgins" maybe they would'nt "need" abortions (which I am not opposed to in the proper circumstances)

Seems to me that you use your personal beliefs to fullfill your own agenda so how does that differ from religious groups?

You talk about equality in one post and the next speak of how the "Evangelists" should not be "allowed" to participate in the media.

You act like christian kids are the hitler youth or something.

So young and full of angst don't worry sweety you'll grow up and find someone else to hate besides god.

Raised Catholic. Have not stepped into a church in over 7 years. I am a practicing believer in god and love and forgiveness.

does being born dead and subsequently resuscitated count as resurrection?

what if my sides were scourged and needles were driven into my feet?

true story.

Welcome back, FloatingJesus.

see, that's the cool stuff about not being a christian-- i can use my judgment to condemn and even hate religion, regardless of what jesus said!

I am pretty involved in a Church of England (Anglican) church. My mother was raised Church of Ireland (Anglican) and my father presbyterian. Anglicanism, I think, does some good at trying to keep to the point and not adopt too much unnecessary stuff.

Greed...bullying...bigotry...hate...they are traits that some Christians have, but they are not Christian traits. Someone said that Christians striving to be sinless hate sinners; well that means they hate themselves, because a Christian who believes themselves to be sinless denies the very most basic point of being a Christian.

The Bible does not teach that being a Christian is the only way to end up in Heaven; in fact the Bible openly states that non-Christians may very well get into Heaven just as readily as Christians. It is utterly wrong to tell someone - anyone - that they are going to Hell. There are three main reasons for this: firstly, people can change; secondly, you can get there without being a CHristian; thirdly, it's God's choice, not yours, and He is rather better than you at choosing the right thing.

But that kind of thing stands in the way of bigotry and bullying, so it gets ignored.

If you ask me, and I fully realize that you didn't, I think a lot of Christians should drop the bullying and bigotry and focus a bit more on what Jesus said, and a lot of atheists should try not to copy the very bullying and bigotry that they claim to despise.

hip priest i know you're a very nice person (at least here on the interwebs) so kindly explain me this one:

“No one approaches the Father but through me.” (John 14:6)

oh yeah. it's there...

Fair point. That is there because Jesus is the mediator for all humans - dying for everyone, not just the right sort of people. I imagine you can either get things straight with Jesus now, or at a later stage in your earthly life, or at some point afterwards.

Jesus and Paul can both be quoted:

Jesus: "Then Jesus told him, "I have come to judge the world. I have come to give sight to the blind and to show those who think they see that they are blind." The Pharisees who were standing there heard him and asked, "Are you saying we are blind?" "If you were blind, you wouldn't be guilty," Jesus replied. "But you remain guilty because you claim you can see."

And Paul: "Even when Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their hearts they know right from wrong. They demonstrate that God's law is written within them, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right. The day will surely come when God, by Jesus Christ, will judge everyone's secret life."

ok, not to be a smartass, but i find that statement quite fucking oppressive-- god the busybody! quit snooping!

about the rest of the stuff, i know there are arguments against reading that "I am the way, the truth, and the life" passage in such a narrow way-- but it's so easy to read it in many ways it becomes a free for all.

which brings us to the fact of scriptural interpretation-- there's so much and there's so many contradictions, anyone can find something to explain anything they do. the bible has been used to justify slavery, to kill homosexuals, to wage "holy" wars...

too much of a mess to sort through, in my opinion. i'm much happier with reasonable laws on a civil society. in spite of lawyers and their own twisted interpretations. sure, civil society isn't perfect, but it doesn't make claims on my secret life.

now, if you want to be a nice person, etc, you sure don't need the whole apparatus of a church. i understand that not everyone is that way though, and my parents for example get some sort of relief or reassurance or consolation or guidance or encouragement from their sunday church. so as long as people keep their religion to themselves, i'm not opposed to it. but when they try to stop gays from marrying (see: california prop 8) and promote other various atrocities (child abuse via the teaching of creationism in science class), i have to weight if they do more evil than good...

Are you telling God to quit snooping? Are you accepting that He can hear you? That makes me feel very happy.


That's precisely why everything should be related back to the words - and the spirit - of Jesus teachings. Otherwise you end up with things like Calvin's predestination. And we don't need theories like that.


Yes it does, yes there are, yes they can. But it's not hard to spot if something is going against the teachings of Jesus. In fact, it's about as difficult as breathing.

The whole debate about contradictions and stuff is something I'm happy to discuss, but I won;t expand upon it right now.

All of the bad behaviour you rightly point out is nothing to do with being religious, it's to do with being human. Totally secular countries haven't been moral pillars either.


The same goes for the atheists. I know atheists who are not bullies or bigots. And I know ones who are. They are every bit as repulsive as the aggressive Christians.

But I think we should avoid saying that talking about something is the same as forcing something upon you. Otherwise we should all shut up about everything. And the forum would be a tad dull.

Very well put. You are a hip priest.