Extremely well-said.

Would you listen to the Sex Pistols if you were a conservative?[/quote]

depends if you wanted to appear like a bit of a rebel at the young conservatives meeting i suppose. i am not suggesting you are.

i've got nothing against simplicity, i just don't really like any standard punk bands.



i thought their purpose was to be treated with equal respect?

I think that was more a characteristic of 2nd wave feminism.

well i have no idea what wave of feminism bikini kill were.
i thought the whole point was that they wanted equal respect for females within the rock underground, not split entirely and form their own enclave? if they were trying to segregate themselves then that makes them more lame, and proves me right. if they were ever about making music why would they want to shut themselves off from other musicians?

I don't know. I'm no expert on the subject by any means.

I just always thought Riot Grrl was more about female empowerment. That they were a bunch of chicks who were pissed off at the male dominated aesthetics of punk rock and wanted to create music by females for females to voice their anger at the way women were treated in society. Rape, sexuality, issues like that. Not so much that they wanted to be treated equally. More of a "we're females and proud of it and you can't tell us how to act" sort of a thing. They created a medium to voice their frustrations.

yeah but the approach they took is not conducive to communicating a message, i mean if you want people to hear what you have to say then the way to do that isn't to create your own private indie-ghetto, which is what happened with riot grrrl

They formed a society made up of females with the goal of spreading their message to other females. The intended audience were women who were dismayed with their role in society. Not society as a whole.

yeah, but they were only talking to a very small minority of females.
i mean i guess it's obvious that most people are largely drawn to music made by people of their own gender/race etc, and maybe they were trying to get more girls to take an interest in music. but at the same time by creating a scene for themselves, which they succeded in doing, a scene that still exists today, it just wreeks volumes of lameness that a band wouldn't want to be recognized for their music, which is what any band who alines themself with riot grrl is doing now. things like ladyfest suggest that stuff isn't strong enough to survive unless they split from everything else. but then maybe it's just for girls who aren't into music made by guys.

i guess this is a circular arguement really.

anyway, i'm much more interested in female musicians who don't feel the need to separate themselves from guys, and are prepared to muck in with everyone else and be judged on the merits of their music (e.g. kim gordon) rather than something other (bikini kill).

Misogynist.

Meh, I don't know. I don't see anything wrong with their logic. They made music that kind of went against the popular notion of what music made by female musicians were supposed to sound like. It was loud, vulgar, offensive. The message being be yourself, don't let society tell you how to act, what to say, or what kind of music you can make as a woman.

And I don't necessarily know that they wouldn't want to be judged by the merits of their music. Just because they're fighting for something doesn't mean they can't be legitimate musicians as well. Gil-Scott Heron for example. Or Public Enemy as you said. It's just that instead of making hip hop they're making punk rock. Which by it's very nature is a bunch of racket played by pissed off folks.

that's what i was trying to highlight earlier, public enemy were ground breaking in terms of their music aswell as their politics. if you go back and listen to fear of a black planet, nobody had ever produced a hiphop record with beats with that much depth, there's so much going on in the music itself regardless of what chuck d was saying in his rhymes that PE's records would be classics with or without the lyrical subject matter, i saw an interview with hank shocklee talking about how they produced that record and they were getting up to all kinds of tricks to make that record sound different to anything that had come out before. i couldn't say the same about bikini kill, i mean they weren't pushing music in any new directions, even in terms of being sloppy, noisey or aggressive. it sounded like they were trying to turn the clock back 15 years. as far as gil scott-heron goes, i mean he was just about as high a calibre of lyricist as it's possible to be, and he played with really great musicians, or on the records where it's just him with a drum beat his lyrics are so well written that they don't really need to be carried by any musical accompniment.

You don't like Neil Young? Im really surprised. I think he is a great musician.

You know I've never really even thought of Bikini Kill as a "political band." They may have certain "female liberation themes," but I never really thought they were annoyingly obsessed about it.


If you see me
If you see me
Just go away
Just go away
If I run
If I run
Don't follow me
Just go away
Cuz I like you
But baby it's all wrong

I think the Dead Man soundtrack is great, but there are no words.
Best review I have heard regarding his unlistenably caricaturish new album:

"It sounds like it was written by a 12-year-old raised by Democrats."
Spot on.

It's the same problem. No point of view or sentiment can make up for crappy unimaginative music.
Cutting Bikini Kill slack for being boring musicians because their "hearts are in the right place" is like weighting the grades of slow children more heavily, and basically devaluing the efforts of kids who are actually smart.
Music has to be able to survive on its own merits.

^As opposed to Courtney?:D Come on.....that shit is in the same vein in terms of what they wrote about.....you ache, I ache, everything is horrible blah blah blah. It's not like shit like that is supposed to enlighten the world or anything.

bikini kill rule. first 2 records cd is great!! if only huggy bear released the split on cd it would be greater. although i have the vinyl sooooo

I think there's a slight difference between wanting to be treated as equals and wanting to be treated as women without having to take shit for it.

But you can criticize the logic of the movement all you want. I could really care less. The riot grrl politics have no bearing on my enjoyment of the music.


That's fine. I've never thought music has to be groundbreaking or pushing things in new directions. Shit, half the music I listen to doesn't fall under that criteria. As long as it's well done I'm happy.

hey i just noticed this thread.yeah that riot girl in Z Gun 3 go me into Bikini Kill again. They were the only band in that scene that had good full lengths. They are very comparable to the wipers if you ask me; virtuosic stoke out punk. Bratmobile had some good eps.

Virtuosic? What are you smoking, man?

weed actually.

virtuosic was the wrong word, i mean, greg sage and kahleen hanna, in the scope of agressive punk rock music, are both ridiculously skilled players. i think the fact those bands could play thier instruments so well is why thier music sounded so ferocious; just tight and fast progressions and melodies played really loudly. not virtuosic, but surprisngly good.

i can't believe all the hate at the beginning of this thread. i'm sure everyone here knows what i think about bikini kill. they are one of my favorite bands. if you say you like punk and don't "get" or like bikini kill then you really don't like punk. plain and simple. that's just the true hard facts.

bratmobile only had one ep to my knowledge and it was amazing. their first album is my favorite riot grrl album (unless you count the frumpies collection). their stuff on lookout records was good, but not as good as their kill rock stars stuff. cold cold hearts is another great band and so is allison wolfe's newish band partyline.

"Ridiculously skilled" is still a gross overstatement, imo, but whatever. Does Kathleen even play guitar?

Bikini Kill never did much for me. I don't think it's anti-punk to express distaste for them. I kept trying to tell myself that it was good and edgy but I just found myself wanting to listen to X-Ray Spex, or Kleenex.

Haha.

Yeah, this thread was REAL hateful .I miss those days. Haha.

i'm glad i opened this thread, seeing bikini kill described as virtuosic is a once in a life time thing

i like bk

I must really not like punk then.

I don't think they really have much to do with "punk" (Maybe pussy punk)... they're certainly not an important punk band that one must "get" to truely be into the scene... throwing a rude 'tude with a few ideas about politics over some power chords doesn't make them any punker than the next feminazi supergroup. The only difference here, most punk bands haven't written a song as awesome as "R.I.P."

I honestly prefer Le Tigre.

*awaits to be pummeled by stones*

it's been many years since i last listened to my bikini kill CD but i would query any comparisons between greg sage and kathleen hanna's guitar playing.

A lot of times when I see my old posts in necro'd threads, I'll feel like I could have said something differently or not said anything at all.
Not this time. I'd pretty much say it again the same way. There are no "true hard facts" in subjective matters like musical taste, and statements like the above only serve to bolster arguments against the kind of super-uptight attitude in that scene that refuses to acknowledge that any criticism can be made about the musical shortcomings of a band perceived to be "important" to a small subculture.
I have punk rock records that I bought before you were ready for cloth underpants. Bikini Kill's actual music, to my ears, was unexceptional and "average" at the best of times. I loved punk growing up, immersed myself in that music for many years and drew my own conclusions as to which bands I found exceptional and unexceptional with a pretty broad frame of reference regarding The Punk Rock. I would argue exactly the opposite of your original slant: it was precisely because I did enjoy punk music for a long time and listened to a whole lot of it that I found Bikini Kill to be a giant snore. If the words are all that counts, you should really just write a book. The music has to count for something if you are in some kind of Musical Combo, for god's sake.

Personal taste.

Right on. Bikini Kill are about as punk as a non-bloody tampon. Decent tunes though.