I just hate the idea of "progressive" instead of just "experimental." Progressive sounds like we are progressing toward the end of music or some shit.

Yeah, but most prog bands have a clearly defined sound (not that the bands usually sound the same but there are lots of sonic similarities between most prog bands), whereas an "experimental" band could be all over the place.

I don't think "progression" means there's ever going to be an end, maybe a better term would be "Furthering"... "FURTHER ROCK". They're just trying to advance the art of rock beyond verse-bride-chorus-verse-bridge-chorus-solo-chorus.

Matt G, when you say "anti prog" are you referring to avant-prog or are you referring to noise (which, in my mind, would be the exact opposite of prog)? Or are you just being clever?

Fuck, Everyneurotic, I totally forgot to mention Thinking Plague. I'm more in the Zeuhl/avant prog side of things, personally.. I think Magma is one of the best bands ever, I'm doing a "classics album" post on them soon! BE WARNED.

Also, glad Tool got mentioned. Aenima is amazing.

Dave Kerman's "regarding purgatories" is one of my favorite prog albums. Did I mention 5uu's or U-Totem? Good stuff.

ASP-
i am a fan of being clever, but i really wasn't trying with that comment.

I feel that prog is too stale for me. I'm not such an expert or admireist of most of the bands y'all have mentioned. I like Rush, KC, Yes & some Genesis. That was the music i cut my teeth on when i was a teenager, before the glory of hip hop & punk rock was discovered.
I appreciate the Dream Theatre & Opeth these days, but very very casually.
anyway, my point is:
I feel that the whole composition aspect, the quest for perfection, the quest for ultimate musicianship, the quest for the perfect balance of production & engineering that goes into Prog Rock is the construction of the big wall between artist & regular people. Most people who are into prog, or play prog have a sense of self-importance that i find disgusting.

Anti-Prog (in my little brain) is a loose term for improvisational music that arrives at a progressive-ish outcome. The unintenional accident of being prog is anti-prog. Yeah.

Interesting.

I can definitely see that, I used to be turned off by the music because it was too composed and seemed soulless... but I really like a lot of stuff that is considered "avant-prog", because it seems like there's still a bit of soul left in the music. Even bands I mentioned like Gentle Giant seem a bit soulless to my ears.

King Crimson definitely straddle the line of being soulless but I think "Red" in particular sounds amazing no matter what.

just listened to a farewell to kings
now listening to The Yes Album
two amazing albums, especially FTK
gotta love rush

i dont know about noise being the opposite of prog, many prog and math rock bands, particularly doncab, slint, and lots of the skingraft prog/math bands, all use noise to their benefit.

the last band in the world i would think as soulless would be yes.

If you don't dig deep, of course you won't get to the good stuff.
If all I knew of prog (current or vintage) was Dream Theater, Rush and Opeth, I'd run for the hills too. Just like any genre, most of it is bad; the only difference is that bad prog is usually REALLY REALLY bad, and bad in a painstakingly executed way. When done right, this music is incredible, but of course most of it is tasteless. I'd say the rate of return is similar to that of goth or black metal in that the good stuff is so very very good, but the overwhelming majority of it is giving the whole genre a bad name.

dream theater is the worst band in the world. in my classical music course theres this fat smelly kid who plays piano and absolutley WORSHIPS dream theater. literally, every day, hell compare something to dream theater. i was wearing my mdc shirt one day, and the kids like who the fuck is mdc, and im like, theyre a legendary hardcore band. then the kid has the balls to say, "if you listened to a band like dream thearer youd realize how stupud hardcore and punk rock is all together". im open to all tastes, but any other situation i would have to strangle his fat neck.

dream theater fans are the worse, only topped by mars travolta and tool fans.

and while we're talking about it, i dig dt's awake, i bought it around the time just out of curiosity and fucking hated it because of the vocals and the keyboards, then i just gave it a listen keeping in mind the cheese factor and was very impressed to find some great songs in there, with unusual arrangements and shit, and great riffs and soundscapes. i liked it so much i bought the first one, then the ep that followed and someone gave me a burnt copy of images and words and they all blow horribly.

now i can listen to awake every now and then but i can't stand dt for the life of me.

i sometimes wonder why i don't sell those cds.

This thread reveals some crazy stuff about you guys.

I try with a lot of 'prog' but ultimately find 99% of it hard to really enjoy. It's like a genre of music made up of the elements I tend not to care much for: seriousness, virtuosity, flutes.

I sent a list of these to prind and auto aim and I figured I'd post a big list of this stuff here.. my favorite avant-prog/rock in opposition stuff:

Check out:
THINKING PLAGUE (especially EARLY PLAGUE YEARS, which sounds like prog rock meets no wave at times -- King Crimson covering DNA, seriously)
HOYRY KONE (some of the weirdest/best bass playing ever)
BLAST (get "stringy rugs", amazing album)
HAPPY FAMILY
KOENJIHYAKKEI (great japanese brutal/avant prog)
KOREKYOJIN (great japanese brutal/avant prog)
RUINS (great japanese brutal/avant prog; some of their albums are inconsistent, but they have this one called.. oh fuck, what's the name? "Symphonica" or something... it's got keyboards and guitars, instead of the stuff they do that's usually just insane bass/drumming which gets old fast)
DOTS
DAVE KEHRMAN (anything he's involved in is amazing)
5UU's
ZS
EXTRA LIFE
GRIM SKUNK
GRAND ULENA
DUN ("EROS" is the best. BEST!)
AHVAK (this band seems really similiar to Dun and only have one album, so check em out)
BONDAGE FRUIT (great japanese brutal/avant prog)
UNIVERS ZERO (lots of "ambient dicking around" that people may not be into. but when they rip, THEY RIP!)
SAMLA MAMMAS MANNA
ETRON FOU LELOUBLAN (43 songs is absolutely my favorite work of music, ever)
ART BEARS

If you're really into that stuff and want some stuff that could easily be considered "Avant prog-metal" -- kinda like the stuff above but much more metal -- check out:

SPIRAL ARCHITECT (words can't explain how insane this album is -- the most complex and midnblowing bassplaying ever. Period.)
UNEXPECT (almost Secret Chiefs 3-y at times, but with some truly avant shit going on, and then VERY VERY fucking brutal parts. Just insane)
DODHEIMSGARD (avant noise prog black metal)
NECROPHAGIST (most insane death metal band ever, almost the most listenable)
DOCTOR NERVE (very rio/avant prog, great use of electronics, the metal stuff on here is weird)
SLEEPYTIME GORILLA MUSEUM/IDIOT FLESH (you all know these I'm sure!)

Great noise rock type prog/jazzy/brutal prog:
ALCHEULISTAS (kinda like Fatal Flying Guilloteens/Hella/Jesus Lizard instrumental collaboration but about a billion times more insane than those bands.)
HONEY RIDE ME A GOAT (one of the few bands doing Magic Band type stuff now)
RICH WOODSON'S ELLIPSIS (look, this is the craziest fucking band I've ever heard. You might find it unlistenable, who knows. But if you want to hear the most complex album ERVER recorded, here ya go. You have to actually pay attention to itt, though)
YOWIE (you've probably heard this insane detuned avantprog math rock project. It sounds like Polvo but even more out of tune, and they change time signatures and bpm every half second. Just INSANE)
BRIDE OF NO NO (avant progressive no wave. Weird as hell. We're talking 15 minute songs with 10,000 time signatures. Albums were produced by Albini and mixed by O'Rourke and yet no one knows this band. Supposedly, the guitarists WERE albini and o'rourke. This band didn't last long. But they were genius.)
SWEEP THE LEG JOHNNY - 15 minute sax driven songs which never repeat. Genius!
DAZZLING KILLMEN/COLLOSAMITE - BRUTAL, complex, insane. The most insane and SCARY power trio ever.

Check out swesish band Ragnarök.

Best prog in the world.
Not to be mixed up with various stupid black metal-bands.

ZEUHL and ROCK IN OPPOSITION/AVANT-PROG are basically the best genres of music. You take everything good about progressive rock (the insane complexity, the actual musicality, the intelligent experimentation), you make it faster and more brutal -- and sometimes more hilarious -- and there ya go.

http://centraldoprog.blogspot.com would be such a WONDERFUL blog if they didn't have rapidshare links. Does anyone else know some good prog blogs? Mutant Sounds posts some gems (like DEMI SEMI QUAVER).

My prog top 25
1. dun - eros
2. etron fou lelouban - 43 songs
3. henry cow - western culture
4. cerberus shoal - chaiming the knobblesone
5. science group - mere coincedence
6. happy family - s/t
7. ahvak - s/t
8. dave kerman - regarding purgatories
9. thinking plague - early plague years
10. blast - stringy rugs
11. hoyry-kone - hyonteisia voi rakastaa
12. koennjihyakkei - viva koenji!
13. ruins - symphonica
14. samla mammas manna - s/t
15. bondage fruit - ii
16. aksak moboul - onze danses pour contre le migraine
17. art bears - winter songs
18. king crimson - red
19. massacre - killing time
20. miasma and the carousel of headless horses - perils
21. yes - fragile
22. 5uu's - abandonship
23. shub-nigurrath - s/t
24. univers zero - heresie
25. alamaailman vasarat - maahan

enjoy!

Yes! Good list...I would add Guapo, Magma, Cassiber, Present, Miriodor, Skeleton Crew, Bob Drake, and Shining.

I love every single one of those bands, especially Skeleton Crew and Present.

I actually think MAGMA - MDK would be # 26 on my list..

1. Can - Tago Mago
2. King Crimson - Red
3. NEU! - NEU!
4. Hawkwind - In Search of Space
5. Faust - The Faust Tapes
7. Kraftwerk - Radioactivity
8. Eno - Here Come the Warm Jets
9. Tangerine Dream - Electronic Meditation
10. Acid Mothers Temple - Acid Mother's Temple & The Melting Paraiso U.F.O.
11. Fripp & Eno - No Heavy Pussyfooting
12. Pink Floyd - Ummagumma
13. Goblin - Suspira
14. Laurie Anderson - Home of the Brave
15. U.F.O. - Flying
16. Genesis - The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway
17. The Orb - UFO Orb
18. Cluster & Eno - Cluter & Eno
19, Tool - Lateralus
20. Blue Oyster Cult - Blue Oyster Cult
21. Seven That Spells - Cosmoerotic Dialogue with Lucifer
22. Green Milk from the Planet Orange - He's Calling Look
23. Jacques Wilson - The Wozard of Iz
24. Yes - Time and a Word
25. Mike Oldfield - Tubular Bells