Objectification is part of sexuality, as long as it's respectfully indulged there's nothing sexist about it.

Honestly, if that's what you really, really think then: a- still refusing to understand what objetification means b- that's really sad c- just repeating what you find more convenient to believe You're conveniently ignoring that it's been said a million times we're not talking about anything consensual, we're talking about being subjected to objetification publicly without consenting to it. So maybe you should come back when you're ready to talk about this in a way that's intellectually honest.

okay glice, but rob's wife makes twice the money he makes and he doesn't feel like his manhood is threatened or something. i get that there is a connection between male privilege and "the male gaze", but that doesn't mean rob is engaging in pay discrimination.

as for me, i am a rude internet asshole, but i'm proud that i helped elect a president whose first bill signed in office was the lilly ledbetter pay equity act. even if he hasn't closed guantanamo yet.


it's obvious she had no closure and was just frustrated, but i'll take blame for the added drama because i knowingly posted trollbait, trollface and all.


i'm not "not arguing with knox because she's a girl", i'm refusing to start from the assumption that rob is a rape enabler or that one must agree with her because she simply demands it.

if we could stop conflating both issues that would be awesome.

i hope you don't because it's a dismal mess, and personally i'm ashamed of my participation in it-- not because i'm a rape apologist, but because i'm such a sucker for strife i take the bait every fucking time and accomplish nothing with it except, mostly, horrify people i appreciate.

in any case, would love to discuss these things with you-- you have my utmost respect and admiration and i trust you to be fair.

yes. i used to do that. honest. i admit it. i haven't in a while now.


lately i've been involved (elsewhere) in heavy discussions about gun control, due to the latest massacres, and the thing i've noticed is that pro-gun people tend to be more reasonable in their arguments than the anti-gun people (except when it comes to "the government wants my guns"). this worries me because the pro-gun folks are persuading me of their cause with clever slogans such as "remember, when seconds count the police are just minutes away." (hard to argue with that).

what i've observed gets knox angry isn't the subjects themselves, but that people dare say "no" to her. you say no to knox and that automatically makes you the worst kind of criminal in her eyes, if you say yes all is forgiven. who can argue anything in those terms? you can't ask people that they change their mind because you demand it.

IN ANY CASE, i hope the discussion can occur in peaceful terms because i think (maybe i dream) most of us can be friends here. of course when i say this i say it in full knowlege that it can be take out of context and interpreted in any number of inflammatory ways, but i'll say it anyway in earnest.

What's really great about this thread is that it's scary, but also reassuring. Many of you are lovely and brilliant (sorry if forgot someone): Nefeli Glice Floaty Keep popping pimples Diesel Ikara Cult

You remember Laila but you think everyone on the forum was nasty to her? I think you are either lying or you have a very selective memory when it comes to this forum. I can name all the posters who were vile to her on here, one by one, and they also include a very smart female poster.

I think one of the things I want to say is that in real terms it is. I mean, in actual reality terms it isn't, but in the real of the day-to-day, people are perceived as more stupid on the basis of their gender presentation. I probably do this too, but I've become incredibly aware that my partner can say exactly the same statement as me, and I get listened to and applauded, while people ignore her. My sister was telling me of an important meeting where a male 'had an idea' that she'd said, verbatim, earlier in the discussion, and he was given the plaudits for it. This is kind of the precedent of this thread, all of these discrete privileges which interpose a discriminative 'reality' upon the biological reality (which is hopelessly obscure)

let's take a moment to admire the relevance of this argument.

Yes. People often ask me why did I turn out to be so assertive about what I'm trying to say. This is because my life has taught me there's no other way. If you're being nice about it, you're not being heard. If you become assertive, you get accused of being a bitch. In either case, every effort is made to not take your point seriously. You've seen how small I am so that becomes even more vital. I actually had to learn to be as scary as I can be, it's a matter of survival. This thread is sad evidence. Whenever men find that they can 'get away with it', they'll gang up and try to silence you no matter how far they have to go. It's only bad when YOU (the woman is aggressive) when they are, they're just 'reacting'. It's only when other males come to the 'rescue' that they would tone it down. It's so obvious it's embarassing. Here's good evidence of that: http://femalebreadwinners.com/women-...p-in-meetings/

I sometimes wonder, as a white-hetro-american-protestant(formerly)-nonpoor-male, why it is that I care so much, so loudly, and oftentimes more than those who you would think should, about the rights and fucking dignity of people who do not fit neatly inside my own privilegded demographic(s), and I quickly realize that it's because of it being the fucking right thing to do.

i know she would never say it, but i have a feeling the following applies to being dark or having an accent or looking like a muslim
i wonder what percentage of american women think every tattoo on a chicano man is gang related?

This means that some men should never approach strange women in public. Specifically, if you have truly unusual standards of personal cleanliness, if you are the prophet of your own religion, or if you have tattoos of gang symbols or Technicolor cockroaches all over your face and neck, you are just never going to get a good response approaching a woman cold.

Oh, you're right - unitary exceptions do disprove generalised rules. My profound apologies.



I've glossed this thread - I'm not really interested in Rob, I'm interested in the way that knox has been constantly harangued on the basis of interrogating something that's vile on the basis of the subject matter - how many times have I called a band utter dogshit and not been hassled for 20+ pages? Every time, I'm guessing? There's something about this subject, on this forum and in general, which makes most cis-men (especially hetero ones) uncomfortable, defensive and incapable of being reasonable.


It really doesn't come across like that - it reads like you're hassling knox because she's a woman representing women's issues. Whether I agree with her (and whether she did start with the premise of 'Rob = rape enabler'), this thread is fucking ugly. Also, Rob's comments come in the context of several thousand posts - he's consistently been repulsively antagonistic with his sexism. He doesn't see himself as a sexist but he's incapable of keeping his desire to express his masculinity to a single 'post hot women' thread. I watch porn. So does knox, I imagine. Neither of us chose to talk about it constantly in public. We possibly might in a 'let's talk about porn' thread.

See also: knox's multiple points, especially the ones about how people are constantly bombarded with images of women. Rape culture doesn't exist in hermetic isolation. It's kind of like the sun - so big you end up forgetting it's there. If it's decided that Rob's actually a decent guy, there's still the issue of how this forum's dealing with knox, and why there are very few women here.


This is an impossible issue for me. To me, it isn't possible to have a reasonable discussion about guns. Outside of a few rural communities, they have the solitary purpose of putting life-threatening holes in humans. So yeah, reasonable argument is very difficult on the basis of the life threatening purpose of these so-called 'guns'. The anti-gun lobby probably appear 'hysterical' because it's a total no-brainer. But that's OT.

[An aside - my partner just said "vaginas are more regulated than gun control", which is fucking brilliant]


You're wrong. Knox and I have been talking for a number of years now. I couldn't tell you the number of things I think she's wrong on. I imagine she's got a good idea of the number of things I'm wrong on. We have healthy discussions because she's incredibly bright and articulate. I've said 'no' to her innumerable times, and she's never said anything like some of the things she's said in this thread because I don't cross the line into grotesque, masculinist bullshit... hopefully. And she'll pull me up if I do and I'll take it on board, rather than telling her to 'chill'.

what could i really be lying about? i obviously remember her(not perfectly) and you admit that people harassed her.... so where's our big difference? feel free to list jerks if you want

Originally Posted by keep poppin pimples
i think i miss laila. she was cool but a girl and muslim so nobody was very nice

ooooh that's such a big deal. i am the great deceiver

well you're not exactly telling it like it is are you?

alright. i read it, and i'll think it over. obviously our perspectives are different, but some sort of intersubjectivity should be possible even with all the transatlantic differences. thanks for the reply.

it's the middle of sunday here and i have to get in my 8-cylinder gas guzzler to buy lots of high-carbon-footprint meat in a massive wholesale warehouse off an interstate highway where everyone spends their weekend here. later i'm meeting with friends and engaging in socially-conformist alcoholism in a capitalist establishment. so i'll post you something back probably monday, if you care to return and read it.

speaking of women-- i'd love to hear from jennthebenn on the issues, because she's fantastic, no-bullshit, and enjoys spectator sports, besides the obvious fact that she's an awesome writer. i know she's taken a sabbatical off the internet to devote herself to real writing, but i do miss her a whole lot. only problem is, i know she hates it when people fight. (sorry jenn!)

okay. im out of here till tomorrow. i insist that rob is a decent guy, i insist that suchfriends is a great guy, and while i'm a recalcitrant and bellicose asshole, i know for a fact they aren't and don't deserve the spanish inquisition.

namaste, or whatever, lol. no, really.

yes, obviously, but we're addressing gender issues here.

In your reply, please consider whether you've been so much more reasonable to me because I identify as a cis-hetero-male. thx

haha that actually made me laugh out loud.
i have no idea what you mean about me being wrong about anything.
i have no recollection of that ever happening.
but then again i'm a derranged drunk...

ever heard of hyperbole.

i was cleaning catshit i came back briefly cuz of curiosity (it kills me). so...

no, funny man, it's because you didn't start up with accusations and you actually heard what i said without overreaching with wild conclusions and casting aspersions, declaring me "blacklisted", or impugning my motives-- you know, saying that if i sink and drown, i'm innocent, but if i float, im a witch that must be burned. so, yeah, it's because your answer wasn't fucking deranged.

i don't think nefeli is a cis-hetero-male whatever, and i think she's amazing, and she made a good post.

anyway, having said that, let me clarify i also have no fucking idea of what "cis" is, and i hope it's not an abbreviation for circumcision or some other horror.

k, gtg. beef.

i have a simple question. i talk funny and have a weird name and a beard and not especially fancy clothes. people meeting me for the first time will ask if i'm a muslim or if my parents are communists or if i know any illegal immigrants.

am i allowed to talk to women?

what if it has nothing to do with dating and i'm lost and just wanna find a bus stop so i go home to my mommy?

since we who have foreskin in america have to watch out for eachother, i'm going to recommend googling cis sexuality before next responding to the term

Sure, that's why I imagined you were simply doing some selective reading on past threads to convince yourself that you could word your post in a way that'd come across as convincing to board members who didn't know Laila on this forum while she was still regularly posting. If I remember well, Rob was super friendly and civilised to her while she was on here. Less hyperbole, more facts, please.

Ironically, since you mentioned her username, I didn't see anyone busy attacking Rob on this (annoying) thread coming to her rescue while she was on the receiving end of pretty offensive jokes on a daily basis.

if you search her name it literally takes five seconds to find this thread where two different people call her 'sunni poony' and the reason she was originally mentioned in this thread is because rob said persians are hot. i'm not trying to act like i was her best friend, i could easily have teased her too without even remembering, hope not. but she never did anything to anybody that there should be a 2 page thread making fun of her when she wasn't even on the site anymore
http://www.sonicyouth.com/gossip/sho...ighlight=laila

I'm well aware of that, thank you very much.

PM me please

 

PM me please

 

PM me please

 

PM me please

 

I should add, im not much bothered by the initial tone of the thread, more by the tone, volume and level of the responses to the objections raised, and the lack of self-awareness and self-criticism these responses appear to indicate.

let me refresh your memory once again:
you were the ONLY person on this board who didn't agree to keep objetification in ONE thread, despite the requests of QUITE A FEW women.
this was a long time ago...
very good memory for someone drunk and derranged.
oh no, i don't forget that sort of thing.

besides, everyone else made it very clear to you: it's blatantly obvious that you never addressed any points raised here but instead took it as an opportunity to try and attack me in every possible low way you could. then changed the tone completely when a man told you off.

in fact, you are reacting the exact same way you did before.

i'll take being a derranged drunk any day over being an insensitive coward.

exactly!
because people are telling knox to chill...
so you would think most people would appreciate a user so chilled that they want private contact, voice messages and facebook and myspace friendship with everyone even if they're mean as hell. we should be embarassed as a group that many of us are too mean to appreciate the sort of kindness and unconditional love that one is lucky to get from their own parents.

Lets be frank Porky, you love being a cunt on the internet. Its no surprise people question your motives when you reply to serious matters.

I'm quoting this for when I need it to give you a run down of all the patronisingly homophobic traits you display on the internet. That's how much of a cunt I like being on the internet.

How about now, lets see all those patronisingly homophobic traits now

This is how I alternatively read your post. Frankly, ikara cult, there isn't much you can do if I enjoy being a cunt on the internet, and if you are annoyed by my attitude and reluctance to engage in almost 0% of serious conversations with you, it is because I don't really value your opinion and find you flakey and untrustworthy. You may be a nice guy in the flesh for all I know, but the fact remains that I don't really know who you are other than the times I happen to read your posts, and it's not my number one priority to get to know you either, particularity if you display such ambiguous attitude towards me, which makes me wonder if you have some issues with overtly confident homosexuals. I'd say you do. Also, I have noticed that every time you feel that uncontainable urge to remind me that I am a cunt, you regularly point out that other people do too. If those are the people I am being a cunt to on the internet, surely I am aware that they think I am a cunt already?Or does it make you feel better that you are not alone in your thoughts?

Why did you took my deviation of your line of speech as an aggression?

Perhaps the dichotomizing urge of the crusade?
Perhaps you think that by not replying to what Rob and others said I am somehow revalidating them? (I haven't even read most of their posts yet tbh)

I simply brought up the fact that all of us objectify and how it isn't forcibly sexist. Something you deemed impossible but is in fact a valid argument and something perhaps worth pondering before saying things like this:

I just like having a go at you because youre the biggest bully on here. When youre in an arguement you cant be bothered with you resort to posting random gratuitous pictures and links to Coldplay songs instead. Which is fine, but at least admit you just do it for kicks.

Still waiting for those homophobic traits big boy...

Ok. You won at the internet. I am off to bed.

there are no winners here Porky

No, I'm just saying that you're either wrong or have a very strange perception of what objectification means, especially in this social context we're addressing here. It's perfectly possible (and quite pleasurable) to have sexual pleasure/attraction with/to human beings without dehumanizing them. It's actually quite scary that someone would say it isn't. To your first two questions: yes and yes. You seemed to be antagonising for the sake of it, without being clear. And I think you know how you'd be interpreted in context and I had no reason to believe we were having a serious discussion, since you ignored most of what was being said. But as I said, I'm always up for a healthy discussion.