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You can't take criticism, music critic. Give it up.
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So, basically, how boring is Sonic Youth? I'm not sure about the gym part, and "happily married" certainly no longer applies, but you know what I mean. Do you enjoy reading about them? |
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I think you took what I said too literally. I said the '70s and '90s were the most boring decades for music, but I didn't mean that nothing good came out of those years. When I said that I was referring to the pop culture mainstream of those decades. For ever Transformer, Unknown Pleasures, Station to Station, Low, Exile on Mainstreet, American Beauty, Lola Vs. Powerman & The Moneygoround etc. (all incredible albums) there were a hundred Gordon Lightfoots and Billy Joels and Grease soundtracks... I love tons of '70s music. Television, Blondie, Talking Heads, Can... (gotta stop because I will just keep going), but I personally think that the bad music of that decade was Exceptionally bad, and that a lot of that really bad music was also really popular. Same with the '90s. Sounds like heresy, I'm sure. But again, most of the great music that came out in the '90s is not included on the "Now That's What's I Call Music: 90's Edition!!" compilations, or the "I love the '90s" VH1 specials. For a lot of people, the '90s were about Matchbox Twenty and "Breakdast at Tiffany's" and... God... Collective Soul.. The Friends soundtrack... Britney's first album. Naughty by Nature, Puff Daddy, Oasis and ... I don't know... Fucking Our Lady Peace and Vertical Horizon. So many of my favorite bands released most of their material in the '90s. I love more music from that decade than probably any other, but I also really hate more music from that decade than from any other. So don't think I hate the 70s. I just hate so many of the big pop culture bullet points of that decade. I'm not a fan of disco or singer-songwritery solo acoustic light pop, but I do love Maggot Brain and Boys Don't Cry and Taking Tiger Mountain (by strategy) And as bored as I might be by most of Led Zeppelin's work, I still fucking love "Immigrant Song" and several others. And I certainly don't dislike people because they like Led Zeppelin. |
Very crudely: The article in question posits that rock cannot be used to purify, because it is satan-fueled fun times made to ruin your life. The Stones would probably agree. I'm not sure if SY thinks of their music as "purifying" but it wouldn't surprise me if they do. Anyway, I'd say they are closer to "ethos"-driven rock than revelry-fueled rock. Of course they're never boring about it.
As for the lifestyle, if you're asking me if I think Keith Richards has led a more exciting, more r n' r life than the members of SY--however much that excitement was mixed with tragedy--than the answer is yes. Yes I do. And for rock n' roll thrills, yes, Life is more exciting than an SY bio, or Kim's book for that matter. One divorce? Child's play. |
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so you're trying to "toughen him up" or maybe trying to inspire a creative breakthrough by flogging him like the sadistic band teacher in "whiplash"?  original  Quote:
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fuck, i didn't mean for you to suffer through the whole thing in real time. just scan the transcription below & be done with it. Quote:
i worship no rockstars and don't give two fucks about what they do but i personally want to drink from the dionysian cup on a regular basis-- their music is a bridge or a door or a pharmaceutical of sorts and there lies its value for me-- not in musician biographies. Quote:
damn. you probably could have used some bon scott-era ac/dc instead. Quote:
truth! |
i can sleep anywhere, anytime anyplace I want. just snooze. guilt free.
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Well 90`s...yes there were also some really bad stuff (one hit thatīs sung Einszweipolizei came to my mind) but I think 90`s were better than 80`s, at least sounds were better. There were quite a lots of stuff that I think are respected (for example Oasis, Manic Street Preachers, Radiohead, Smashing Pumpkins) that I didnīt get into at all. But still I think even 90`s & 80`s were better than 2000 (some of my real favourite albums are made in 90 for example Tom Waits, Nick Cave, Pj Harvey & of course Sonic Youth). And still the main point is that I think you got the wrong picture of seventies. You seem to forgot that Rolling Stones, Bowie & the Kinks were mainstream music in the seventies. And I can continue almost endless: Yes, Genesis, Pink Floyd, The Who, Zeppelin, Santana, Hawkwind, Purple, ZZ Top, Skynyrd, Free, Mike Oldfield, Allman Brothers Band, Canned Heat, Kate Bush, Black Sabbath, the Band, the Faces, Funkadelic, Sly And the Family Stone, Marc Bolan, Marvin Gaye...and so many 76-77punkers & postpunkers. |
reviews of yr favorite music is fine to me, but the cult of personally really burns in the hip hop café. sometimes it's mostly steamy hot doo doo. my knee jerk reaction makes me think of networking music reviewing companies or whatever like pitchfork and knee jerking for a 14 yr old boy obsessed 90's real classic rock fan comment. i'll try it out but im not going straight up lame. there's a vagueness about my comments i only understand. like some autistic kid. not sarcasm or irony. maybe i stupid but im definitely proud of it. totally pretentious.
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The 90's is where music went to die. |
the 90's was just a decade between the 80's and 2000's. just waiting for something to happen reading spin mag.
but there was great music that you could count in a handful and the excitement for the undiscovered past and upcoming future was unique. now you have all the shit eating pleasures you wanted but didn't expect and find them boring and to actually taste like shit. don't it taste good? the good thing about the upcoming generation is that they might grow up quicker and jaded and be even more boring than our grandparents. it's apparent in their not caring about nothing. nothing. jaking off to nasty ass porn at 13. drugs, industry candy 3-d music that fucks with their senses. they're already old. dying. dilapidated. |
im just as guilty as any. it's like when the culture's 'swingers club' collided with two generations in the late 60's, 70's.
together we eat and defecate networking shit. brewing more shit for a better tomorrow. |
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^ I could tear this to shreds, but I'll assume you woke today realizing for yourself how dumb this is.
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No, thatīs the way I am thinking of it. I really hated eighties plastic drums and sounds and empty hits like Bad Boys Blue & Modern Talking "great tunes" (that kind of music people listens in my home village). I remember to like a little bit of Kajagoogoo & Duran Duran, but just a little bit. Only album I really want to listen from the eighties that I havenīt heard is Eurythmics Sweet Dreams. Mostly I listened then sixties and seventies music. When Metallica & speed metal came, it was kind of rescue to me, because then I also could join into youth movement. Little bit earlier I started to listen also Iron Maiden. I thought most speed metal bands were quite boring, but there were some good. Voivod has been one of the only ones with Metallica I still listen.
RHCP & Fishbone are of course great eighties artists, I started listen RHCP in the late eighties, Fishbone in the beginning of nineties. |
I think this sums well the ugliness of eighties comparing to the seventies:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y1t5tayNS8 |
This is dumb. "PJ Harvey is better than Duran Duran, therefore the 90s were better than the 80s."
Okay. Minutemen were better than Squirrel Nut Zippers. So the 80s were better than the 90s. Actually, Minutemen were better than Pat Boone, so the 80s were better than the 50s. Minutemen were better than Herman and the Hermits, so the 80s were better than the 60s. etc.... |
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this is why we can't have nice things |
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Am I being too mean? I didn't say "retarded." |
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it's not about degree, it's how the direction goes from talking about music with someone one disagrees with to getting personal with a heretic. i don't see eye to eye with antonio das mortes but i believe he's sincere in his opinions and not trolling, so there's a chance for him to tell me something i don't know and for me to do the same in return. maybe it works, maybe it comes to nothing, but still, worth the try. i was watching neil degrasse tyson on charlie rose yesterday and he was talking about how you could place a spaceship next to an asteroid and use its gravity ever so slightly so it wouldn't hit the earth. just a little gravity to give it a tug and the orbit changes-- no need to use nukes. but see, a little gravity could also deviate a perfectly innocent asteroid to hit the earth. and then, flames & flames. |
He used a cheap trick, which I think is fair play.
But okay. Take 2: Morte, may I recommend a book called Our Band Could Be Your Life, which I think does good job of capturing the excitement that occurred in the 80s, albeit under the mainstream radar? Also, may I suggest listening to Peel's Festive 50s from the 80s? I believe you'll come across tons of great stuff. |
I donīt have to read books about eighties, I have lived it through (and survived). And already then I was active in whatīs happening in the popular culture. Maybe it was little different in Finland than in US or UK, but I donīt think there was lots of differences in mainstream. What was popular in UK & US, was also in Finland. Maybe I listen that Peels, when I have enough time.
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I gotta say, I've been thinking this all along. I agree with you 100% here, and your post about Minutemen sums up exactly why this is a debate that has no resolution. It can continue to be a discussion, as log as nobody gets nasty or unnecessarily offended, but obviously Morte just thinks more highly of the music of the '90s than we do. And it sounds like when we talk about he '80s, we're talking about bands that have nothing to do with Kajagoogoo or Duran Duran. :/ |
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I think the point of suggesting the book is not to inform you about the '80s itself, but to give you an idea of what many of us think about when we think of that decade. That is, the American indie underground, and what was happening in California, the Midwest, Seattle, Boston, NYC and DC in the clubs and basements, and how ideas were swapped back and forth between struggling U.S. Bands and their UK/Irish/Scottish counterparts. Maybe this is a part of the '80s that you didn't experience first hand, because of geographic limitations... Of for whatever reason. |
Yep.
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living in a 3rd world dictatorship with government owned media i had almost no access to that scene or any music scene for that matter, only mostly pop shit, but when i came to the us in the 90s i connected to that current pretty soon-- i remember i had only 2 cassettes in my car-- one was evol the other was the VU. i couldn't afford to buy much but those were completely new to me in the 90s. i loved them. i think it's unfair to show that video w/ the eurythmics cover of lou reed. i like annie lennox voice sometimes but eurythmics was horrible. conversely one could show devo's cover of satisfaction or siouxie's cover of dear prudence-- both great covers and for my taste an improvement on the original on some aspects. yes both covers are 70s things to be specific but both bands reached their height of popularity in the 80s. there were good popular bands like talking heads or b-52s or even REM (not my taste but hey deserve respect). let's not forget that for all the good rock the 70s had to offer it also engendered atrocities like disco which may have had its gems but it was mostly empty boring shit--plastic drums and all manner of loops were used heavily then, and only appropriated by "new wave" pop-rock later. i think it's nice morte likes geetar rock but in the 80s technology was exploding-- it could not romantically be avoided forever though, just like the prerafaelites couldn't stop the industrial revolutio by painting fairies. rock itself was the product of technology-- without electric instruments it wouldnt' have existed--and dylan eventually got there in '65 to much controversy. similarly, electronics had to be embraced by popular music as the computer age took over. even 70s heros had to adapt or die. ex-genesis peter gabriel (who lorded over the most pastoral era of the band before phil collins turned it into musical feces) ended up doing synthpop shit like his video with the dancing chicken. queen which proudly would stamp "made without synthesizers" in their 70s record covers ended up using them in the late 70s/early 80s and recording with bowie. yes after their late-70s collapse reformed by incorporating the "video killed the radio star" huy & put out one last good record. rockers that wanted to remain true to their history just got more bloated and irrelevant (hair bands) though they were still hugely popular. meanwhile someone like laurie anderson crossed from minimalism into popular music with a record like "big science." i love that record-- the ones that followed not so much. but it really sort of announced the territory the 80s had to conquer & experiment with. i didn't actually hear that until the 90s but i can place it in its historical context. rock was already in exhaustion mode in the 80s. it refreshed itself by going back-- to rockabilly, to simpler rhythms, to pop blends like new wave, to extremes of speed and intensity of things already in existence-- or by blending with electronic music like devo-- but the era of great innovation and experimentation was over. it had to be. on the other hand, it was a great era of innovation for all things techno. kraftwerk is a 70s band but they reach their apex in the 80s. joy division evolved into new order-- which maybe was a bit crap overall but had some great songs (we've had a thread about it already). detroit techno developed in that era too-- there was this famous dj who'd play the whole of kraftwerk's autobahn over & over in his show-- there's a nice documentary about him on youtube-- and apparently he single-handedly inspired a whole bunch of 13 year old kids with such an act. (this is impossible in radio today unless you're talking college stations). the 80s was also the era when hiphop exploded. i am no big expert so i'll let others talk of that. hiphop of course took a big bite off the "rock" market. still in spite of the reduction/retreat/drive underground, the 80s gave us some great rock-- yes it wasn't part of the mainstream anymore but it was there in a pretty busy underground & college scene that yes, maybe it was not being exported that much, but it kept exploiting what could be exploited and you can look at it in retrospective without having to have lived there & then, just like you can get interested in bebop even if you weren't alive in the 50s. love of the 90s is a bunch of nostalgia because it was the LAST youth movement for which rock was the soundtrack. in terms of innovation it brought practically nothing-- it was either the explosion of things that were being developed in the 80s (e.g. melvins --> nirvana, or sonic youth playing on the radio), or vestigial forms of arena rock, etc. things just got recycled in a nice package and then that was it. math rock brought back some treaks in prog rock. thinking fellers channeled zappa. mars volta did rush. there aren't really many more places to go in rock. the last frontier was noise-- after noise, all that's left is silence. [ eta:80s- napalm death >>> metallica ] rock is on its way to becoming a conservatory art like jazz or classical or tap dancing. some children now go to real-life "school of rock" where they learn to jump around on stage. the form will continue forever, as a tradition-- just like i like to listen to new orleans bands still playing "the sheik of araby" like it is the 1920s. but let's not expect that the great next musical revolution is going to come out of a geetarr and rock drums. actually i don't know what the fuck is going to happen and that's the funnest part of it all. morte, keep your ears open & don't calcify. lolol my rant. i'm reading this and laughing. == ps- my favorite 90s band i mean the stuff i can listen to no problem and probably all day is stereolab. it does borrow elements from rock but is it even "rock"? |
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Yes, I didnīt really hear Minuteman or even Sonic Youth in the eighties in Finland. Finland wasnīt third world country or under the iron cross, it has always been western country, but still very far away of Us altarnative in those days. I think there were two radio channels, cable televison channels were about to come. |
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i don't think it was a better time per se-- i think you had a better time given the availability of music for you, but that's not an intrinsic quality of what was around back then. i mean you go from a top-40 prison to greater resources & global connectivity and access, and then later comes the internet which lets you see & hear anything-- well it sure looks better. the late 90s were great for me too mainly due to napster which let me break out of jail free and let my tastes take me where they willed. but at the same time we had atrocities which were OF the time, like, say, kid rock, ha ha ha ha. i think even the eurythmics are going to beat kid rock if we choose them arbitrarily to "represent" each decade. |
Tell me have I understood right: If the one is SY-fan, he has to automatically love the whole Us-underground of 80`s (also UK & near countries counterparties), otherwise heīs dumb?
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 i didn't call you dumb, did i? i hate it when people put words in my mouth--unless you were talking to someone else.  |
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Mortte - Geez, man - I didn't call you dumb either! I was just trying to explain why Our Band Could Be Your Life was recommended to you. Please stop acting like you're being attacked. No, of course it would be insane to say that anyone who didn't love 80's hardcore/punk/post-hardcore and indie music was "dumb." Man, I'm too old to even use that word without making myself sound like a lobotomized asshole. |
I used "dumb." And I didn't mean Mortte is dumb. Just his ideas.
But to make it up, I'm listening to: Jefferson Airplane - Surrealistic Pillow (1967) I thought this would be corny and outdated, and all the lyrics are pretty dippy, but just when I thought I was better than the album, tracks 4 and 5 floored me with their beauty. "Today" is especially magnificent, and would fit right in on the 3rd VU album. 1967 rules! |
Severian, my comment wasnīt really to you, it was most to the Evollove as he seemed to regognise it. But you all seemed to think evollove reaction is totally ok. I honestly not has been very familiar with that US/UK scene and I really think most of the worldīs music listeners are also not. If you asked them how they describe eighties, I think synthpop came into everyoneīs mind more than Minutemen. Donīt you all see that you seem to have quite US/UK centered view of the worldīs popular music? Yes, I know even I listen a lot UK/US music, but still...and I really think also Finnish alternative scene of the 90`s was really great, but really not think anyone else than Finnish people who where round when it happened know about it.
But maybe this subject is totally discussed... About Surrealistic Pillow, I think itīs really one of the 1967 classics. Also really love the followers After Bathing at Baxterīs & Crown Of Creation. But in Surrealistic almost every song is very catchy. This is my favourite from Bathing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4FtfZ1WuTA |
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 yes please. just don't keep saying "everyone." uffff. === i'll have to listen to that jefferson airplane. i'm curious now. i know a few songs here/there but never paid a lot of attention to it. i probably should. 80s in my native wasteland had a very small & obscure punk-ish scene. mostly rich kids who'd travel out of the country & come back w/ fashions that were already old elsewhere. a couple of bands got semi-famous by ripping off iggy and agnostic front and changing the lyrics. i didn't find that out until many years later-- i thought they were awesome, but no, ha ha. lol rich punks. == i had THE TREME BRASS BAND for a breakast soundtrack. i've posted a picture of this album before. a rowdy bunch of very old men blowing horns and covering traditional standards with cracked voices. tubas and trombones are a great great great way to start the day. |
Because Minutemen has mentioned many times here, I decided to check it out again (I have listened before few songs, I think one was "this ainīt no picnic" they sounded good, but nothing more so I decided not to listen more).
First I started with e.p. Project: Mersh and it didnīt sound anything special. I thought I will put nomeansno over this band anytime. Also I thought I really prefer the original Steppenwolf-piece lot more than their cover: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZDdsuvlIC8 But then I watched their history from wiki and noticed it is older band. So I decided to listen their first e.p. paranoid time, then the full album What makes man a start fire. And those sounded really great! Thanx guys, it always great to find new/old great albums! BTW I think Nomeasno has been big fans of Minutemen. |
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First off, I do not think it was Ok for evollove to say that what you said was dumb. I'm not going to glove-slap him and challenge him to a duel over it or anything. I think he re-canted what he said, and more or less made up for it... After some prompting from Symbols, who in case you didn't notice, pointed out that the comment was uncalled for almost immediately. Which was nice of him. Second, yes, you're absolutely right. Most of us are into English speaking artists who either had an influence on, were influenced by, or were direct peers of Sonic Youth. It probably shouldn't come as a surprise. This is the official Sonic Youth website, after all. Does that mean we only listen to English speaking, western artists? No. A lot of people here are pretty hot for Japanese noise, techno from all over the world, German sound collage/industrial shit, and Northern European drone. But obviously we're all here because we like Sonic Youth. So we all probably are into a lot of the same shit. Maybe we should focus on the similarities instead of the differences? I dunno. |
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noooo! similarities bore-- differences enrich nobody here is gonna try to listen to that 2nd line eh? i see how it is... :P |
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Nomeansno and Minutemen definitely have some of the same influences and interests. Minutemen, to me, are the perfect hardcore band. More so even than Minor Threat or Hüsker Dü. They were really something sick and twisted and special, and they rocked like hell. I'm glad you liked what you heard. But did you check out the Punch Line? Or Double Nickels on the Dime? The latter has always felt to me like he Highway 61 Revisited of hardcore, though I have NO fucking clue how I came to to make that comparison. |
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Edit: Sorry, I thought you asked about the bands called Punch Line and double etc. Now noticed theyīre Minutemen albums too : ). Yes, I already thought yesterday I am going to listen that first album too. |
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